Evangelist variant from Dragon #311

[Mouseferatu]

Well, that's the real question with the published version of the Evangelist class: assuming you balance the better skill selection against the poorer armour, does Turn Undead equal four domains? I tend to think that it's slightly out of balance in the evangelist's favour (but not so much so that I find it an easy call to make - hence the reason for this thread in the first place, heh heh). It might be worth seeing the class in play for a few levels to see how it all balances out...

Well, my own 2 cents...

Turn undead is cool. It's potent.

It does not balance out to four domains in the average campaign.

Obviously, if you're running an undead-heavy campaign, it becomes a lot more potent. But in many games, it's not really any more useful--and in some cases, it's less useful--than some of the other domain abilities. For instance, look at the domain ability for the elemental domains (Air/Earth/Fire/Water). If you're in a campaign near a volcanic mountain chain, the ability to turn or rebuke fire creatures is going to be far more useful than the ability to turn undead. If you're playing an aquatic campaign, the same is likely true of water creatures.

Sure, there are lots of feats that build on turning undead, and those do make it more valuable. OTOH, most DMs I know allow people with other turning abilities to use those as well (or instead). I'm not sure what the RAW say on that particular matter, though.

Bottom line? In an "average" campaign (assuming there is such an animal), I'd say turn undead is probably worth two domain abilities. I certainly wouldn't equate it to four, myself. Then again, most domain abilities aren't quite as potent as the ones I mentioned.

So we're back to what's been said already. The evangelist class, as printed, is probably a bit overbalanced, but not excessively so.

Oooh, hmmm... Interesting. I was a really big fan of the 2e spheres system, warts and all, and bemoaned its removal at length. This may well be worth checking out - pimpery much appreciated

Be careful. You get me started, I can pimp from now till doomsday, and you'll never hear the end of it.

 

[UltimaGabe]

As I originally wrote it, the evangelist got so many domains because those were the only spells he had access to; he didn't get to choose any from the actual cleric list. The idea was, essentially, that the evangelist was a domain-only caster, and thus needed more domains to A) grand him enough spells to be worthwhile, and B) so his domain abilities would help make up for the loss of power and flexibility.

Wow- two things.

1. That's what I thought the class was- the few times I read over it, I got the impression that it WAS a Domain-Only caster- but it appears I was wrong.

2. I totally didn't realize that you wrote those! That's awesome. I think a lot of the Cleric variants in that issue were great- in fact, I played an Arcane Disciple in my last campaign. One problem with that class, however, was that my group saw it as a tad weak- specifically because of the loss of Turn Undead. Taking it away made sense from a flavor standpoint, but it weakened the class, and there was nothing to replace it to balance out the class again- so after the initial "Wow!" factor, we all realized it was at a severe disadvantage. So we gave it Turn Undead back, and all was good.

Just my two cents. Good job, even if the editors got to Hack & Slash their way through it. (Even if they're newbie adventurers.)

 

[Mouseferatu]

The arcane disciple can, indeed, turn out weak--or it can turn out a little overpowered. How it works out in any given campaign, IME, is the result of a combination of two factors:

1) Which arcane spells does he choose?

2) What sort of campaign is it?

In the hands of powergamer, in a pure hack-n-slash campaign, it can actually prove devastating. In other situations--such as in yours, it seems--not so much.

While I'm all for player choice and flexibility, if I had to redo the class again today, I'd probably tweak it a bit (though I'm not, at this moment, sure how). As I designed it, it may be a little too broad in its application.

Really glad you liked the article, though.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Frankly I've never understood the attraction of the "elemental" domains, simply because no campaign I've ever played/DM'd has had enough elemental creatures to make them worthwhile. But I can see how the Water domain would be Da Bomb (tm) in an aquatic campaign.

On the other hand, does it make sense that if you are playing a Favored Soul (or Evangelist) with no Turn Undead class ability, you can still use the elemental domain abilities? I believe they state something like "turn/rebuke [air/earth/fire/water] creatures as a [good/evil] cleric turns/rebukes undead". So if you're not a cleric, it seems those domain powers won't work.

 

[Mark Hope]

Bottom line? In an "average" campaign (assuming there is such an animal), I'd say turn undead is probably worth two domain abilities. I certainly wouldn't equate it to four, myself. Then again, most domain abilities aren't quite as potent as the ones I mentioned.
So we're back to what's been said already. The evangelist class, as printed, is probably a bit overbalanced, but not excessively so.

Yeah, I was thinking of stripping away a couple of domains and seeing how that played out. I'd agree that it also depends heavily on what else is going on in the game.

Be careful. You get me started, I can pimp from now till doomsday, and you'll never hear the end of it.

Do you have a big hat? And a fur coat? And bling? Because I'm not sure I'd trust your pimping otherwise...

Gotta agree with UltimaGabe on this as well - it's a great article and sees lots of use in my homebrew.

Frankly I've never understood the attraction of the "elemental" domains, simply because no campaign I've ever played/DM'd has had enough elemental creatures to make them worthwhile. But I can see how the Water domain would be Da Bomb (tm) in an aquatic campaign.

They feature pretty heavily in my Dark Sun games, but in my homebrew stuff, yeah, elementals are not as prevalent. Still, setting stuff on fire is always pretty cool, no matter the setting...

On the other hand, does it make sense that if you are playing a Favored Soul (or Evangelist) with no Turn Undead class ability, you can still use the elemental domain abilities? I believe they state something like "turn/rebuke [air/earth/fire/water] creatures as a [good/evil] cleric turns/rebukes undead". So if you're not a cleric, it seems those domain powers won't work.

No, I'd say that they work fine. It's just equating it to the mechanics used by the cleric class, not requiring you to be a cleric. Even if you don't have turn/rebuke undead, the domain expressly gives you the power to turn/rebuke elementals (or whatever it happens to be).

 

[Mouseferatu]

Frankly I've never understood the attraction of the "elemental" domains, simply because no campaign I've ever played/DM'd has had enough elemental creatures to make them worthwhile. But I can see how the Water domain would be Da Bomb (tm) in an aquatic campaign.

Ah, but remember: the ability doesn't specify elemental creatures. It says (for instance), "fire creatures."

There are quite a few creatures with the (Fire) subtype that aren't elementals. Heck, with the proper domain, it's technically possible to turn red dragons (though I wouldn't lay any money on your odds of success if you try, given the HD).

 

[Joshua Randall]

I hereby summon Hypersmurf! to answer our question about whether a Favored Soul can use the "Turn Undead"-like granted powers of certain domains.

 

[Mark Hope]

I hereby summon Hypersmurf! to answer our question about whether a Favored Soul can use the "Turn Undead"-like granted powers of certain domains.

Well, a Favored Soul doesn't get any domains at all, so generally speaking, it won't have access to a "Turn/Rebuke X"" granted power. But the question is relevant for the Evangelist, though ...

 

[Mouseferatu]

Don't need Hypersmurf for this one.

"As a cleric..." is a descriptor, not a prerequisite. Look under the paladin entry. They turn undead "as a cleric of three levels lower would." That doesn't mean the paladin has to be a cleric of three levels lower; it just describes how the power works.

Ditto the turn/rebuke ability of, for instance, the air domain. It's tracked seperately from Turn Undead, precisely because it's a different power. Anyone with the domain ability can do it, whether or not they actually have the ability to turn/rebuke undead. It's just that--in most cases, as per the core rules--you're never going to have the former without the latter.

 

[Taluron]

At one point there was an addendum/clarification for the Evangalist somewhere. Either here or on Paizo's website.