evasion and being grappled

[SteveC]

"As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion."

That was actually the basis for my original ruling, but I think I have been more than persuaded that the decision to allow it was the right one. It felt good, just for a moment, to have the upper hand on this character, since he is nigh invulnerable in most cases.

The sequence of events was that the character was hit by a barbed devil grappled, drawn onto the spikes and then had to make a Will save to avoid fear. Of course the result was a "1" which pretty much took him out of the battle.

Another character stepped in to "help" by using the arc of lightning, with (temporarily) disastrous results. In the end the group was run ragged, but they won, so my job was done properly, I'd say.

--Steve

 

[Jhulae]

"As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion."

If the character were pinned, I would certainly disallow Evasion; I wouldn't consider the pinned character to have room to move.

Merely grappled, on the other hand? He retains his Dex bonus to AC against creatures not in the grapple, so he must have some ability to move; I wouldn't have a problem with Evasion being used in this case. (I can even bring up the mental image of the rogue managing to swing the grapple about so that he is sheltered from the blast by his opponent.)

I once had a DM who denied me my Evasion because I was riding a horse. That irritated me at the time.

-Hyp.

I can see being Pinned not allowing a Reflex save. Of course, that goes for the Pinner, too...

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Even a pinned character is not helpless, and a helpless character has a Dex of 0, but can still make Reflex saves. The Rogue entry says that a helpless rogue can't use Evasion, and the pinned entry says that a pinned character is not helpless.

 

[MarkB]

Merely grappled, on the other hand? He retains his Dex bonus to AC against creatures not in the grapple, so he must have some ability to move

Small correction: He retains his Dex bonus against his grappler(s), not against those outside the grapple.

But I wouldn't use being denied Dex bonus as a measure at all for this - a character denied Dex bonus is still anything up to 5 points of AC better off than one which is immobilised. I'd say that, so long as there is room to move, any creature whose Dexterity isn't being treated as zero is still capable of making Reflex saves, and thus of using Evasion.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Even a pinned character is not helpless, and a helpless character has a Dex of 0, but can still make Reflex saves. The Rogue entry says that a helpless rogue can't use Evasion, and the pinned entry says that a pinned character is not helpless.

A creature squeezing in a tight space is not helpless, and cannot use Evasion. A creature who does not have room to move is not, necessarily, helpless, yet he cannot use Evasion, nor may he make a Reflex save.

Helpless is not the sole reason someone may not use Evasion.

Small correction: He retains his Dex bonus against his grappler(s), not against those outside the grapple.

[blink] Er, yeah. I definitely knew that... not sure what happened there!

But I wouldn't use being denied Dex bonus as a measure at all for this - a character denied Dex bonus is still anything up to 5 points of AC better off than one which is immobilised. I'd say that, so long as there is room to move, any creature whose Dexterity isn't being treated as zero is still capable of making Reflex saves, and thus of using Evasion.

A pinned creature's Dexterity is treated as zero, of course.

-Hyp.

 

[glass]

"As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion."

If the character were pinned, I would certainly disallow Evasion; I wouldn't consider the pinned character to have room to move.

Merely grappled, on the other hand? He retains his Dex bonus to AC against creatures not in the grapple, so he must have some ability to move; I wouldn't have a problem with Evasion being used in this case. (I can even bring up the mental image of the rogue managing to swing the grapple about so that he is sheltered from the blast by his opponent.)

I once had a DM who denied me my Evasion because I was riding a horse. That irritated me at the time.

This. Apart from the bit about the horse.


glass.

 

[RangerWickett]

I once had a DM who denied me my Evasion because I was riding a horse. That irritated me at the time.

-Hyp.

I played a ranger with a horse companion. Horse had improved evasion. I didn't. We'd get blasted with hideous fireballs and breath weapons, and apparently the bloody horse was using me as a human shield!

 

[Klaus]

I'd visualize it like so: in general, the grappling Rogue is cunning enough to use his opponent as a shield against the area effect; or in this case, the Rogue is cunning enough to avoid the lightning zapping between his opponent and some other dude.

Cheers, -- N

This.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

A creature squeezing in a tight space is not helpless, and cannot use Evasion. A creature who does not have room to move is not, necessarily, helpless, yet he cannot use Evasion, nor may he make a Reflex save.

-Hyp.

You can always make a Reflex save, even if you're chained to an altar with a delayed blast fireball bead sitting on your chest. Unless you're dead already, but then you'd take 1/2 damage from fire anyway, being an object.

Grappled creatures are not squeezing. Pinned creatures are not helpless. 'room to move' is fluff. Helpless, unconscious (which is also helpless), and squeezing are the only conditions that prevent use of Evasion. Well, that and being loaded down due to armor or encumbrance.

 

[shilsen]

I played a ranger with a horse companion. Horse had improved evasion. I didn't. We'd get blasted with hideous fireballs and breath weapons, and apparently the bloody horse was using me as a human shield!

I've seen that happen with a paladin and his mount. It's beautiful !