AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Meh, starting with a 16 vs an 18 isn't going to break anything. There are a few builds it will disfavor slightly is all. Probably 80% of all characters are going to be best off starting with a 16 pre-racial.
Even Steven Array
- Thread starter Kurtomatic
- Start date
Meh, starting with a 16 vs an 18 isn't going to break anything. There are a few builds it will disfavor slightly is all. Probably 80% of all characters are going to be best off starting with a 16 pre-racial.
I want my players to feel powerful and have a good time, but also not be too restricted on character creation ideas. I say screw 28 point buy and just give 13 14 15 16 17 18 to them. Yes it makes for a strong party, but that means we can get thru encounters more quickly or I can beef things up against them and know that they have a pretty good chance of coming out on the other side.
Did a quick glance and yes, this makes for 52 point buy heh.
Did a quick glance and yes, this makes for 52 point buy heh.
Dr_Ruminahui
First Post
As a player, I tend to use point buy to give me 17, 15, 13, 10, 10, 8 - it allows me a good primary (without paying through the nose for an 18), a strong secondary and a fair tertiary. Doesn't really work if you need, say, a 4th stat for feats, but otherwise I think its a good basis for a character.
That said, I don't see what the OP is going for by wanting his players to use an array (and only one array), rather than point buy - I can't see what is gained by preventing players from tweeking their stats. Then again, the only advantage I see for arrays are for new players or those who don't have the patience to do point buy.
That said, I don't see what the OP is going for by wanting his players to use an array (and only one array), rather than point buy - I can't see what is gained by preventing players from tweeking their stats. Then again, the only advantage I see for arrays are for new players or those who don't have the patience to do point buy.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
This is my preferred allocation as well for most classes. A Genasi Tactical warlord I'd probably go 16/16 vs. 17/15 but otherwise like the 17. Buying an 18 is rough.
ValhallaGH
Explorer
I had pretty good success with a 14, 14, 14, 14, 13, 13 (before racial mods) array.
16 is the lowest key ability score that is really viable in 4e. However, you can get that 16 with racial modifiers.
Good luck.
16 is the lowest key ability score that is really viable in 4e. However, you can get that 16 with racial modifiers.
Good luck.
Which is an 18 post-racial.
It also depends on the feats you take. Expertise makes up for a two-point swing in your attack stat, for example.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Nah. Everyone is expected to take Expertise before 15th level. No exceptions.
"I ban it", -- N
Kurtomatic
First Post
Thanks for the responses! 
I didn't offer much about my specific needs because I wanted to use a composition (bottom-up) approach to the topic, and I think 'minimum useful base primary' is an interesting question in its own right. I figured 16 would be a popular answer; I started with 15 just to test the envelope. However, I can see lots of other questions arising that are also interesting. For example, I think its interesting that the PHB standard array starts with a 16, and the CB default array starts with an 18.
So to flip the topic completely top-down, why even bother with specific arrays at all? Why not just use point build, and let the chips fall where they may? Well, a few folks here on ENW have mentioned playing or running games where everyone uses the same array. If six players show up for a new game, and all the 22-point-buy character ability scores start with a 20 (post-racial) and end with an 8, how flexible is that really? Are we getting too far into 'false choice' territory? Clearly, not all 22-point arrays are really 'net-equal'. I can personally spend an hour in CB splicing the secondary and tertiary bonuses up six ways from Sunday; sometimes this seems like 'good' difficult decision-making, other times it feels like severe overthink.
One of my challenges with 4E is that I don't get to actually play much (as a player), rather than DM. I don't have the practical experience with character building in 4E that some of you do. But I have played a fair bit of LFR, and I can tell you that when the skill challenges come around, you quickly learn where everyone's dump stats are. Nobody cares you have a 20-whatever primary; they care where you dumped your 8.
I'm guessing some groups choose to use a single array to simply cut to the chase, while also moderating the mini-maxing a bit. The simple scenario I offered in the OP is semi-theoretical; in truth I will probably offer a number of choices to my players, including 22-point-build. But I would also like to reward players for avoiding dump stats. Offering them a package deal of moderate starting array + juicy (house rule) bonus is just one possible way of doing that.
Another would be offering a beefed-up array that could not be bought for 22 points. For example, I might offer a group of players 22-point-knock-yourself-out-buy or an Even Steven 16/15/14/12/12/11 array (28 points). Does anyone think that array would really require rebalacing adventures or monsters? Actually, I think that's a great use for starting arrays in combination with point-buy; getting access to more expensive but less optimal builds.
I enjoy reading how other people have solved ability score arrays for various characters and builds. I wondered what the practical range of scores that folks with more character building chops than I have use. So I appreciate all the suggestions!
I didn't offer much about my specific needs because I wanted to use a composition (bottom-up) approach to the topic, and I think 'minimum useful base primary' is an interesting question in its own right. I figured 16 would be a popular answer; I started with 15 just to test the envelope. However, I can see lots of other questions arising that are also interesting. For example, I think its interesting that the PHB standard array starts with a 16, and the CB default array starts with an 18.
So to flip the topic completely top-down, why even bother with specific arrays at all? Why not just use point build, and let the chips fall where they may? Well, a few folks here on ENW have mentioned playing or running games where everyone uses the same array. If six players show up for a new game, and all the 22-point-buy character ability scores start with a 20 (post-racial) and end with an 8, how flexible is that really? Are we getting too far into 'false choice' territory? Clearly, not all 22-point arrays are really 'net-equal'. I can personally spend an hour in CB splicing the secondary and tertiary bonuses up six ways from Sunday; sometimes this seems like 'good' difficult decision-making, other times it feels like severe overthink.
One of my challenges with 4E is that I don't get to actually play much (as a player), rather than DM. I don't have the practical experience with character building in 4E that some of you do. But I have played a fair bit of LFR, and I can tell you that when the skill challenges come around, you quickly learn where everyone's dump stats are. Nobody cares you have a 20-whatever primary; they care where you dumped your 8.
I'm guessing some groups choose to use a single array to simply cut to the chase, while also moderating the mini-maxing a bit. The simple scenario I offered in the OP is semi-theoretical; in truth I will probably offer a number of choices to my players, including 22-point-build. But I would also like to reward players for avoiding dump stats. Offering them a package deal of moderate starting array + juicy (house rule) bonus is just one possible way of doing that.
Another would be offering a beefed-up array that could not be bought for 22 points. For example, I might offer a group of players 22-point-knock-yourself-out-buy or an Even Steven 16/15/14/12/12/11 array (28 points). Does anyone think that array would really require rebalacing adventures or monsters? Actually, I think that's a great use for starting arrays in combination with point-buy; getting access to more expensive but less optimal builds.
I enjoy reading how other people have solved ability score arrays for various characters and builds. I wondered what the practical range of scores that folks with more character building chops than I have use. So I appreciate all the suggestions!
Stuntman
First Post
As a player, I do not like the idea of being forced a particular array upon me. Suppose you have two players who build characters using the standard point buy. Most likely both will use a different set of scores. Now, tell these players to swap their ability scores and rebuild their character. Do you really think either of them will be happy?
Assigning arrays just really limits me as a player because depending on what character I want to play, the way I would distribute my points would be different. You essentially force me to make a worse character. You might as well tell me that instead of 22 points, I have to use some smaller value.
There is no single array that will not upset anyone. If I wanted to play a multiclassed character, I will need to have two good ability scores. On top of that, depending on the feats and secondary scores I want, the flexibility of point buy is very important. Another player who wants to play a single class character with very little need for secondary scores (swordmage comes to mind) will have a totally different set of abilities.
I would like to know what your reasons for choosing to just give a standard array rather than allow players to use standard point buy. I do not see any benefit. If some players do not want to go through the trouble, just give them a standard array. For players who want to use point buy, let them.
Assigning arrays just really limits me as a player because depending on what character I want to play, the way I would distribute my points would be different. You essentially force me to make a worse character. You might as well tell me that instead of 22 points, I have to use some smaller value.
There is no single array that will not upset anyone. If I wanted to play a multiclassed character, I will need to have two good ability scores. On top of that, depending on the feats and secondary scores I want, the flexibility of point buy is very important. Another player who wants to play a single class character with very little need for secondary scores (swordmage comes to mind) will have a totally different set of abilities.
I would like to know what your reasons for choosing to just give a standard array rather than allow players to use standard point buy. I do not see any benefit. If some players do not want to go through the trouble, just give them a standard array. For players who want to use point buy, let them.
