Even Steven Array

[Saeviomagy]

I think the main issue with having only one array is that there are two main types of builds, both of which want different things in their array.

One group wants one very high stat and a slightly lower secondary stat.

The other group wants two high stats.

Now, that said, one can certainly work within the restraints of a single array, but you're less likely to find, for instance, star warlocks with a blend of cha and con powers, or paladins splitting between cha and str and dumping wis.

That may be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your players and the other resources you allow into the game.

 

[Jhaelen]

Our first game used standard array. It went fine. As long as people know in advance that they're using an array, it's not a problem.

Exactly. And that's what we did, too.

Actually, two players liked having a fixed array better than point buy. One player didn't get the message and had used a different array, but it was easily fixed (and the player actually noticed during play he didn't like the character build (great weapon fighter), so later he created a different one anyway (a sword & board fighter)).

 

[eamon]

18 pre-racial (i.e. 20 post-racial) or 18 post-racial (i.e. 16 pre-racial)?

Most optimizers advocate 18 post-racial, unless you can justify shafting your secondary and tertiary ability scores. It's certainly possible to justify a 20, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

It depends on the level. My recommendation is a 20 post-racial (particularly for dex/int primaries) unless you know what you're doing. Though it is easily possible to get better results with a lower primary, a +1 to hit, AC, Ref, damage and maybe init is terrific, and the alternatives then better be too. Put more bluntly, I've yet to see a 20-post racial character suck, but I've seen many mediocre MAD characters when their intended various combos or flexibilities just don't work as well as they intended. The best characters probably don't have a 20 starting stat. But it's a pretty safe starting point.

Edit: Higher level chars have more feat slots, and so feat prereqs play more of a role. Also, by paragon/epic all your stats rise anyway, so getting the prereq(s) is cheaper too. This means that higher level chars favor a 20 post-racial less frequently. Also, a 20 post-racial won't shaft your important secondary much, which can still be a 16, or at worst a 14 which isn't actually that much worse.
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I'm almost positive that 16/15/14/12/12/11 is a weaker array for almost all characters than point-buy. It's an interesting option, and cool for roleplaying a skill monkey - but the skill modifier difference between that and an 18/14/11 build is not even +1 on average(!), and you're giving up a full +1 to attack and damage and hardly gaining anything else. In short, this array will work well for those that need to satisfy prereqs or are MAD anyhow, and will remain subpar for most characters. It's a good additional choice.

Part of the problem is that at low levels you don't need the feat prereqs yet since there are ample excellent choices for few feat slots - and at high levels, anything but your primary+secondary stat will be terribly sub-par, and only attractive for feat prereqs and a small off-stat NAD boost. To push my own beliefs on this matter: Now, you can fix that problem by raising all stats - not just 2 - at levels 4/8/14/18/24/28 ;-) - suddenly, it might be worthwhile to actually invest a little in off stats since they will actually remain competitive, and you've solved part of the skill and NAD divergence as levels rise in one swoop.

One of my challenges with 4E is that I don't get to actually play much (as a player), rather than DM. I don't have the practical experience with character building in 4E that some of you do. But I have played a fair bit of LFR, and I can tell you that when the skill challenges come around, you quickly learn where everyone's dump stats are. Nobody cares you have a 20-whatever primary; they care where you dumped your 8.

Actually, I think it's subtly but significantly different: nobody cares about about your dump stat, they care about your 4 (or at least 3) dump stats. You can't really raise your lowest three stats by much anyway (even the proposed 28-point buy array remains just a subtle boost), and that means that the real distinction is between the following three groups: great skills (primary/secondary +training), OK skills (primary/secondary OR training) and the terrible skills (no training, no aligned stat - and these are the majority)

Each character is bad at most skills, that's almost inevitable for most builds. Most characters will have about 4-5 OK or better skills, and 12-13 terrible ones. You can do better; a Wis/Cha build has 9 stat-aligned skills, so for instance a prescient bard with training in 5 non-aligned skills could get 14 OK skills. With just three multiclass feats for endurance, stealth and thievery, he could be OK at everything (though good at nothing). 'course, this is atypical (who wouldn't want at least a few really good signature skills?), and such a character has a primary/secondary split that boost the same NAD...

</ramble>

Right, so if you feel like adding the 16/15/14/12/12/11 array to the options, that's fine and balanced. A further (more relevant imho) fix would be to raise all stats at 4/8/14/18/24/28 levels, which is a natural enabler of more balanced builds and thus likely to shift attention away from the primary and secondary stat.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

18 pre-racial (i.e. 20 post-racial) or 18 post-racial (i.e. 16 pre-racial)?

Most optimizers advocate 18 post-racial, unless you can justify shafting your secondary and tertiary ability scores. It's certainly possible to justify a 20, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

Cheers, -- N

Sorry, since we're discussing ability score distribution in the context of building characters I was considering initial pre-racial allocation. You can definitely justify a 20 in specific instances and its a perfectly good option. We agree though, probably the optimum is 18 after racial adjustments in the majority of cases. 17 after adjustments would probably be almost as popular aside from the irrational idea that "odd numbers are bad". 16 after I think is pretty well considered a little below par and hard to justify.

 

[Nifft]

...

By Epic level, the feat prereqs have gone up too. Check out what you need for Wizard Implement Mastery, for example. Your Paragon & Epic stat bumps won't be sufficient.

Sorry, since we're discussing ability score distribution in the context of building characters I was considering initial pre-racial allocation. You can definitely justify a 20 in specific instances and its a perfectly good option. We agree though, probably the optimum is 18 after racial adjustments in the majority of cases. 17 after adjustments would probably be almost as popular aside from the irrational idea that "odd numbers are bad". 16 after I think is pretty well considered a little below par and hard to justify.

Well, I discussed two of the cases where 16 post-racial is justified... but yeah, that's the exception. 18 post-racial is the rule.

17 (or 19) are also justifiable, but those are expected lifespan issues. By taking an odd score, you're making explicit assumptions about what levels you will play -- and what levels you will not play. For example, anyone who thinks there's a chance he'll get to hit level 28+ wants the 18, not the 17.

Basically: levels 1-3 favor the 18, levels 4-7 allow the 17, 8-10 favor the 18, 11-13 allow the 17, 14-17 favor the 18, etc.

If we don't know what range of play, the 18 (post-racial) is safer.

Cheers, -- N

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

17 (or 19) are also justifiable, but those are expected lifespan issues. By taking an odd score, you're making explicit assumptions about what levels you will play -- and what levels you will not play. For example, anyone who thinks there's a chance he'll get to hit level 28+ wants the 18, not the 17.

Basically: levels 1-3 favor the 18, levels 4-7 allow the 17, 8-10 favor the 18, 11-13 allow the 17, 14-17 favor the 18, etc.

If we don't know what range of play, the 18 (post-racial) is safer.

Cheers, -- N

True, but the difference is pretty marginal since your 17 guy is also benefiting from higher scores in other abilities at the "disadvantaged" levels, vs 18. Vs 16 the argument is weaker but basically "I don't want to be that far behind". Given the low probability of any given character making it to level 27 in most games it seems like a difference trivial enough to ignore. Obviously if you're going to play a one-shot then even scores are always better overall.

 

[Nifft]

Given the low probability of any given character making it to level XXX in most games

IMHO, each player needs to take responsibility for knowing what's expected from his game. If he doesn't want to think about that, giving him statistical advice is misleading -- because the statistics of the way your group plays isn't necessarily relevant to his group at all. (Statistical advice for the RPGA, however, is quite valid. But I don't play there, so I have none to give.)

If he doesn't have the information available -- or if he just doesn't want to think that long-term -- his best course IMHO is to play it safe, and just take the 18 (post-racial).

Cheers, -- N

 

[keterys]

Basically: levels 1-3 favor the 18, levels 4-7 allow the 17, 8-10 favor the 18, 11-13 allow the 17, 14-17 favor the 18, etc.

If we don't know what range of play, the 18 (post-racial) is safer.

It's pretty darn close. 16 levels of advantage vs. 14 levels of advantage. And that advantage is only in secondary stat, whereas the 19 (post-racial)'s advantage is always in primary stat.

Interesting.

Fwiw, I actually tell my players I don't care and to go ahead and change their stats at stat gain levels. So they can be 16/16 at 1st, 17/15 at 4th, etc.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

use whatever you like as standard array.

4e is so easily adjustable that you won´t encounter any problem:

if all of you have main attribute 15, you are at -2 to hit and damage on average. (I believe 18 post modidiers is average)

at level 1, you still hit well enough. Also at level 2 and 3 if you give out items early enough. Afterwards, just use monsters of slightly lower levels.
As this system is built, using lower level monsters is a solid choice, because their attacks and defenses scale faster as damage. (combats are less swingy)

The downside: using monsers of too high levels results in always hitting low damage monsters with massive hp.

Using lower level monsters however results in hard hitting average hit chance and average hp monsters. So if you don´t mind leveling up slightly slower, a low starting primary ability makes combat faster.

 

[Herschel]

Nah. Everyone is expected to take Expertise before 15th level. No exceptions.

"I ban it", -- N

I can name one exception using an example you gave. You said that it is justifiable in some cases to use a 20 in your attack stat. As a weapon user, that gives you a +1 over the 18. If you take a +3 proficiency weapon, that gives you another +1 over the +2 proficiency weapons. That makes expertise not needed on the 20 primary character with the +3 because he's has the same hit probability as the 18 with the +2.