Evil or just.........mostly evil?

[irdeggman]

A character can hold their breath for a number of rounds equal to their constitution score (which will be larger than average for dwarves), before they need to start making con checks (which the dwarf will likely make the first few of).

Which was my point. A bard should have at least a rudimentary knowledge of that fact. # rounds is almost never going to cause someone to drown.

Therefore the PC would have to be thinking "I'll sacrifice this person, who actualy tried to help me in order to survive." definitely an evil act.

 

[Question]

Yes but the dwarf was already in so deep that, without magic, it would have been impossible to pull him out.......and realistically speaking a PC ingame doesnt know the dwarf can hold his breath for a number of rounds equal to his constiituion score, or anything about his capability to hold his breath.

 

[KarinsDad]

Which was my point. A bard should have at least a rudimentary knowledge of that fact. # rounds is almost never going to cause someone to drown.

Therefore the PC would have to be thinking "I'll sacrifice this person, who actualy tried to help me in order to survive." definitely an evil act.

I disagree.

This is a neutral act.

It is good (and maybe suicidal) to reach down and help the dwarf.

It is neutral to survive by pushing down the dwarf. The dwarf is already a goner shy of any other intervening forces. Neutral people tend to be pragmatic.

It is evil to push the dwarf down with your spear (and hence damage the dwarf and prevent him from grabbing your legs) to survive.


The dwarf is already submerged in a killing environment. Pushing him down further (when he is already probably 3 or more feet under, we do not know the race of the female PC) does not really do much to ensure that he still dies. There might be an argument that if he is too far down, nobody can save him. But, the PCs probably do not know that for sure and this is something that might not be thought of quickly in a desperate emergency situation.

Additionally, by pushing (presumably standing on) the dwarf, as a DM, I would have given the Dwarf the chance to grab onto her legs. In desperate situations, people do desperate things in order to survive. This applies to both the original PC and the dwarf. This also might have enabled everyone to be pulled out and survive.

Would you have ruled that it was an evil act for the Dwarf to grab her legs when she stood on him because he might drag her under?

Good for the goose, good for the gander.


Given that we have no other information to base this on, if the DM just based it on this, he overreacted. This is not like she just didn't like the dwarf and did an evil act of slitting his throat. She was struggling just to survive.

 

[frankthedm]

The character I am playing currently is very unlike most characters I play. She is a Bard who will be a chameleon and is pretty much out for herself because she feels most of the party is a bunch of retards. Long story short in the last session she stepped into some quicksand and managed to get out her whip in time and wrap it around a tree branch. (we had just met the new character, a dwarven druid not 10 minutes prior to this.) The Druid climbs the tree and tries to pull her up to him. He rolls a 1 on his strength check AND his balance check and falls head first into the quicksand. 3 rounds later I'm still chest deep in quicksand and the Druid is completely submurged and as far as my character can tell, dead. During my struggle I feel the dwarf near my legs. Like I said, I think he's dead so instead of letting go with one hand and trying to grab him (also remember we just met) I step on him to propel myself upwards. Based on this action the DM changed my allignment from NG to straight N. Im not mad, in fact I find it amusing but it it justified for that one action? Thoughts?

Definitly justified. The character has been Neutral since...

is pretty much out for herself because she feels most of the party is a bunch of retards

Should have gone straight to Neutral Evil when you used the person who had just tried to save you as a stepladder.

 

[Goldmoon]

Im not sure if it matters but they did manage to pull out the dwarf. My bard did attempt to heal him (I am the only healer in the group) but he was dead already.

 

[KarinsDad]

Im not sure if it matters but they did manage to pull out the dwarf. My bard did attempt to heal him (I am the only healer in the group) but he was dead already.

Don't you just love it when Druids get killed by natural causes. There's just some type of Cosmic Poetic Justice when a treehugger gets wiped out by the wild. It's almost as if their nature deity deserts them in their hour of need.

In the afterlife, Spirit One: "Let me get this straight. You worshipped Sylvanus and he allowed you to die in quicksand?"

Spirit Two: "Yeah, something about needing compost there or something."

 

[Goldmoon]

Don't you just love it when Druids get killed by natural causes. There's just some type of Cosmic Poetic Justice when a treehugger gets wiped out by the wild. It's almost as if their nature deity deserts them in their hour of need.

In the afterlife, Spirit One: "Let me get this straight. You worshipped Sylvanus and he allowed you to die in quicksand?"

Spirit Two: "Yeah, something about needing compost there or something."

I found humor in the irony, the druid's player however.......

 

[irdeggman]

I found humor in the irony, the druid's player however.......

And that brings up my first post.

Now I do forsee a lot of in-party division forthcoming.

If the party was not "designed" for this then there will be a lot player-to-player clashes likewise. This could lead to a very uncomfortable playing situation and for this reason alone I would seriously look at whether or not this PC belongs with the group.

The character does not belong in the group if his (or her) presence is detremental to game play. Regardless of how close the character is being played to alignment if the character is causing issues of this type then it is either beign played wrong or flat out doesn't belong.

A character that is out for himself can be played in a way that doesn't endanger the other PCs.

If I was a player (not even the dwarf's player) in that game I would have a serious talk with you about playing so much destructive to the other PCs.

3.5 is all about PCs working together. That is why there is no longer any individual awards except for role-playing ones).

It is possible to role-play friction but stabbing another PC in the back has no real place in a 3.5 game, IMO. And I for one would never enjoy playing with a player who runs his/her PC that way.

 

[irdeggman]

Im not sure if it matters but they did manage to pull out the dwarf. My bard did attempt to heal him (I am the only healer in the group) but he was dead already.

Would it have helped if your PC had attempted to grab the dwarf?

If so then your PC was directly responsible for another PCs death.

 

[irdeggman]

I disagree.

This is a neutral act.

It is good (and maybe suicidal) to reach down and help the dwarf.

It is neutral to survive by pushing down the dwarf. The dwarf is already a goner shy of any other intervening forces. Neutral people tend to be pragmatic.

It is evil to push the dwarf down with your spear (and hence damage the dwarf and prevent him from grabbing your legs) to survive.


The dwarf is already submerged in a killing environment. Pushing him down further (when he is already probably 3 or more feet under, we do not know the race of the female PC) does not really do much to ensure that he still dies. There might be an argument that if he is too far down, nobody can save him. But, the PCs probably do not know that for sure and this is something that might not be thought of quickly in a desperate emergency situation.

Additionally, by pushing (presumably standing on) the dwarf, as a DM, I would have given the Dwarf the chance to grab onto her legs. In desperate situations, people do desperate things in order to survive. This applies to both the original PC and the dwarf. This also might have enabled everyone to be pulled out and survive.

Would you have ruled that it was an evil act for the Dwarf to grab her legs when she stood on him because he might drag her under?

Good for the goose, good for the gander.


Given that we have no other information to base this on, if the DM just based it on this, he overreacted. This is not like she just didn't like the dwarf and did an evil act of slitting his throat. She was struggling just to survive.

My assumption was that a bard knows enough about holding his breath to know that after 3 rounds a PC is not dead (it was said that the PC assumed the dwarf was already dead after being submerged for merely 3 rounds). This is based on the fact that most of the perform skills involve controlled breathing of some kind.

Since I don't know what the bard's knowledge skills or languages are then I can't assume the bard knows that dwarves are strudy (other than the fact that they look stout and strudy by the way they are built).

I also can only assume that the bard has at least rudimentary knowledge of how long a character canhold their breath since I do not know what perform or knowledge skills the PC has.

But the fact was that the dwarf (and apparently only the dwarf) had attempted to help the bard and then fell in while doing so. So I have difficulty saying all these combined does not constitute an evil act.