Evil protagonists from fiction - or 'Examples of how to play the bad guy without being a total jerk'

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think you guys are underplaying the “I fight the law and the law one”, revolutionary ethos that has undergirded America since time immemorial.

A culture that worships outlaws like Jesse James, Butch Cassidy, Billy the Kid, Wild Bill Hickok, and Prohibition Era Outlaws (Bonnie and Clyde, Ma Barker, Baby Face Nelson et all) as much as it reveres truly meaningful subversives such as George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, John Brown, Frederick Douglas, Nat Turner, Harriett Tubman, Susan Anthony, Rosa Parks, Jack Johnson, Ali, and MLK…well…that culture is telling you something…

Bad boys/girls that push back against establishment, plutocracy (even if only in perception) and government reach…even if the underclass that reveres them is collateral damage = WOOOOOO (cue Rick Flair).

LOL, yeah, well, The Law also WON . Not all rebels are seen as equal either. There are a couple sub-cultures at work here. Some people will shoot you for suggesting 'hippies' were heroes, but they were definitely against SOMETHING. Nobody sheds a tear when gangs go down either. The politics is many layered for sure. Florida looks a lot different from Vermont too (or Western Washington where I happen to be now).

 

[Eltab]

Exactly how we should view that in terms of what it does to us, yet another question.

Not all characters are intended to be role models. Some are object lessons: do not be like this guy/gal.

 

[aramis erak]

Been a while, but isn't he more LN?

No... Neutral not lawful, and weakly into Good. He's willing to go way beyond his badge's allowed violence. He does mean to better society... but he's not part of it. He's an antisocial, potentially psychopathic, guy willing to push every envelop to secure what he sees as justice.

The best lawful villain for me is Inspector Javert from the musical versions of Les Miserables. (I've not read the novel in any language.)
Javert trusts the courts and judges everyone rigidly I'd list him as lawful neutral - no concern for whether or not an individual is a benefot to society, pursuit of the law as the only concern... when he finally realizes the evil he's perpetrated, he kills himself. (The portrayal by Russel Crowe was brilliant, IMO.)

 

[Flamestrike]

More like Chaotic Good! He hasn't even the time of day for 'orders' or 'rules', he's out there handing the bad guys their asses, vigilante style.

Read the OP please for the definition of Lawful.

Vigilantes like Frank Castle and Rorsarch are Lawful for the purposes of this thread.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I think you guys are underplaying the “I fight the law and the law one”, revolutionary ethos that has undergirded America since time immemorial.

A culture that worships outlaws like Jesse James, Butch Cassidy, Billy the Kid, Wild Bill Hickok, and Prohibition Era Outlaws (Bonnie and Clyde, Ma Barker, Baby Face Nelson et all) as much as it reveres truly meaningful subversives such as George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, John Brown, Frederick Douglas, Nat Turner, Harriett Tubman, Susan Anthony, Rosa Parks, Jack Johnson, Ali, and MLK…well…that culture is telling you something…

Bad boys/girls that push back against establishment, plutocracy (even if only in perception) and government reach…even if the underclass that reveres them is collateral damage = WOOOOOO (cue Rick Flair).

Can't speak for others. In my case, I was referring specifically to a change in attitudes from the 40s and 50s, American exceptionalism and all that to the 70s.

I'd also point out that I think there's a distinction to be drawn between liking the "heel" and believing they are "the good guys". Bonnie and Clyde were celebrities of a sort, but did people start teaching their kids to rob banks and kill people?

 

[Flamestrike]

Back on topic:

Amos Burton (NE):

 

[Manbearcat]

Can't speak for others. In my case, I was referring specifically to a change in attitudes from the 40s and 50s, American exceptionalism and all that to the 70s.

I'd also point out that I think there's a distinction to be drawn between liking the "heel" and believing they are "the good guys". Bonnie and Clyde were celebrities of a sort, but did people start teaching their kids to rob banks and kill people?

Certainly.

But two things:

1) The peer groups are doing a huge amount of the informing when it comes to "teaching their kids." And those peer groups absolutely revere iconoclastic anti-hero ethoi and aesthetics.

2) And while those parents aren't teaching their kids to rob banks and kill people...they're absolutely romanticizing the constituent/primordial parts of the equation. Parts that are fundamental "slices of Americana" when it comes to governance, authority, liberty, establishment corruption, bootstrapping (at all costs should be implicitly appended to that everytime you hear it), the "moral hazard" of "letting the man take advantage of you/walk all over you", a fool and his money are quickly parted, die on your feet rather than live on your knees (etc etc).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Certainly.

But two things:

1) The peer groups are doing a huge amount of the informing when it comes to "teaching their kids." And those peer groups absolutely revere iconoclastic anti-hero ethoi and aesthetics.

2) And while those parents aren't teaching their kids to rob banks and kill people...they're absolutely romanticizing the constituent/primordial parts of the equation. Parts that are fundamental "slices of Americana" when it comes to governance, authority, liberty, establishment corruption, bootstrapping (at all costs should be implicitly appended to that everytime you hear it), the "moral hazard" of "letting the man take advantage of you/walk all over you", a fool and his money are quickly parted, die on your feet rather than live on your knees (etc etc).

I think it would be impossible to go down this street any further and NOT provoke a violation of the rules but I agree, and well, 'and...'

 

[crazy_cat]

The Operative from the Serenity Movie.

Prepared to do anything to further the cause of creating a better world for everybody (as seen by his Alliance masters) - murder, mass murder, and covering up the disaster of failed population pacification efforts on Miranda that led to the near total extermination of the planetary population and the creation of the Reavers. But fully realising his own evil and understanding and even embracing it, and accepting that he can therefore never be a part of this perfect world once it is created.

'I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster. What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done'

 

[nevin]

Maybe it's that "I'll-make-meth-and-destroy-other-people's-lives-to-save-myself" thing that makes him a jerk. YMMV.

I think the point is most people see them as normal people. They don't see all the criminal behavior. If you met our friendly science teacher you'd never think murderous meth producer.