Evolution (Project Cancelled)

[Vascant]

Before the crash there was a thread with some information regarding Evolution, so figure it was time to catch everyone up to speed. We now have 4 different screen shots to offer to give an idea of the direction things are heading and also looking for feedback as well.

History
After creating NPC Designer I realized some pretty hefty design flaws were at the foundation and it would not be able to handle some of the things users desired; Saving and loading of the NPCs and massive edits. While great for creating an NPC, these flaws created a weak area for campaign usage. Data seems to be the number 1 issue for all d20 applications, except CMP and PCGen. So in December I sat down with design notes for NPC Designer (700+ pages) and started working on, what would the next tool look like. Thats how I came up with the Code Name: Evolution

Evolution
With Evolution the first step was to humble myself, PCGen is perhaps the most worked digital data in the industry so rather then try and re-invent the wheel lets start there. Taking their SRD portion I started creating what I refer to as Code Generators that read in LST Format data and then create Evolution source code. While I cannot say for every dataset, those that I have purchased thru CMP have all worked perfectly in the Code Generator. The User Interface was the next hurdle, creating a dynamic interface that the user can control. Everything you see on the main interface is controled by external information that users can change. If you do not wish to use Alignment in your game you don't have to and in fact it won't even show up. If you wish to create something completely unique, you can as well and it will be as if it was created to handle it. There are no limits to the amount of classes, levels, templates or any of those things commonly found in applications. Epic material is not being looked at as a , will do later but instead being addressed at the very beginning, same with Monster Advancement. One of the biggest mistakes I made with NPC Designer, I handled the PHB related information first and then did monsters and other things. In Evolution I am starting with the monsters and then building upon that.
One of the key steps is moving away from just a generator, each section as you will normally find in a char gen will have its own user interface but it will have dual functionality. You can either handle all or some of the selections and then leave all, some or none left to the AI to select. As in the skill interface, you will notice some of the key generator values available to be changed by you. Thats the idea of Evolution though, stripping away the seperation of things and merging them into one entity that works with the user rather then restricts.

Screenshots
Now that I have finished a ton of the foundation code things are moving smoothly and a new screen shot is being made available usually once if not a few times a week.

(This is not even close to being done but does serve my need to see whats going on)

I am starting on the Arms and Armor UI today so it should be available in a few days.


Any opinions or questions?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I like the design shown in the screenshot.

The idea to use an external (but comprehensive) source for material is definitely a clever idea. It increases adaptability and extensiblity, and also lessens the work you will have to make to ensure that the program will be usable.

Starting with monsters and going from there seems to be sensible. I usually make monsters and NPCs by hand, and unless I use LA +0 races, I will always start with the race and racial SA/SQs and then determine the (base) ability scores.

On a tangent note:
What programming language do you use?

 

[Mercule]

Looking interesting. I really, really like the idea of being able to import .lst files. I agree that that's about the only way you're going to be competitive. I know the .lst files (especially the availability of the CMP files) were what convinced me to use PCGen.

I also like that it sounds like you're going to have more ease-of-editing for your data. LST files are better than most of what's out there, but there are still some major headaches in editing them. I am correct that you'll be importing LSTs, and not actually just using them?

A question/suggestion on the skills page: One thing that I really like about HeroForge is the per-level breakout of the skills, and my players have said something similar. This is especially nice when dealing with level drains or creating higher level characters. Will Evolution have such a breakout, or is it just a giant pool? If not, I'd consider that a significant issue.

I'd encourage you to look at Unearthed Arcana while you're designing. If Evolution can handle some of the odder rules in there (spell points, spontaneous clerics, weapon groups, armor as DR), then you're doing good. If not, it may end up like RPGX, which is pretty, but not particularly useful (at least to me).

Another weakness in RPGX is that it doesn't easily support multiple campaigns (at least, it didn't last time I looked at it). I run two campaigns, one in Eberron and one homebrew. For Eberron, I'm using RAW, but I heavily tweak the rules to fit the flavor of my setting. Plus, there's another GM in the group who has his own set of house rules. A useful tool needs to be able to handle these various "modes" of play.

Dunno if you've got an eye towards it, but having a built-in initiative tracker in PCGen has been awesome. I hope you can include something like that in Evolution.

Finally, exportability. I love electronic copies of character sheets. But, I hate having them handed to me on CD. Email is so much easier. Having a file sized appropriately for emailing it would be great.

Tall orders, but you did ask for feedback. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

 

[Vascant]

Actually.. this is what I asked for.. and got it

First: Language is .Net 2005 (I picked it for a few reasons; I wanted to learn it and being I am retired I don't want to get caught in a gutter of sticking things that I am familiar with, I like certain things in the Dev Env that really have made development fun, There is serious work by others to make the .Net Framework portable on Mac and Linux flavored OS's)

Mercule: I have been debating on if a Per level breakdown would be needed, honestly you just sold me on the idea. We already have started work on a type of version control for the PC/NPC though which should also assist in handling this feature as well.

LST Format Data: Yes, there is a seperate tool that converts the data over to something Evolution can use. At present the conversion process is at 100%, meaning I have not had to go in by hand to clean anything up before or after.

Different Rules: I am already looking at many forms, not just what you said but also Mr Cook's AE and IH. Thats why I am getting systems to a point where the just barely function and then moving to the next, when I get the entire foundation completed I will then start to address these alternate rules and moving them into place. This is also why you see extra space on the UI and not trying to just fill it up. I know more is coming and want room to add it.

Multiple Settings: Learned my lesson with NPC Designer on this one and had to come back and code it later. Already in place, I have not done the UI for it because it just slows down my testing but the code knows it exists and already handling it.

Output: At present for testing I am using the stat block but it uses HTML so anything is possible actually. The output can be exported to SOAP as well (XML Basically). Answer to this is yes, it does it can it will.

Init/Combat Tracker: We had this conversation a few months ago and in fact was one of the seeds to redesigning and coding a new program. To have the data structured with the idea to be used by other processes, features and functionality.

Seems we agree on something, a successful d20 application needs to have three aspects: A good User Interface, Functionality and Data. Every application to date at best achieves 2 of the three and many just hit 1. NPC Designer is no different as fails to hit the data and the user interface is at best decent (I am not going to take shots at other's software so will take shots at my own). So with listening to NPC Designer users for the last 18+ months, watching the development of RPG Toolkit and RPGXplorer the time is perfect.

Thanks

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Actually.. this is what I asked for.. and got it

First: Language is .Net 2005 (I picked it for a few reasons; I wanted to learn it and being I am retired I don't want to get caught in a gutter of sticking things that I am familiar with, I like certain things in the Dev Env that really have made development fun, There is serious work by others to make the .Net Framework portable on Mac and Linux flavored OS's)

Having developed in C#/.NET myself (as a student project), I must say I enjoyed working with it. M$ Visual Studio is a good idea (though it has a few quirks). . Still, despite the work done for porting .NET, I think that might stay a weakness for a long time - unless Microsoft begins to work more with the OpenSource and Linux/Mac community.

LST Format Data: Yes, there is a seperate tool that converts the data over to something Evolution can use. At present the conversion process is at 100%, meaning I have not had to go in by hand to clean anything up before or after.

IIIRC, the PCGen .list files aren't XML, which might be a slight weakness, since .NET (and Java too) come with a lot of facilities for handling XML in an easy way (and the whole XML concepts like XML schemas/DTDs augment this).

Different Rules: I am already looking at many forms, not just what you said but also Mr Cook's AE and IH. Thats why I am getting systems to a point where the just barely function and then moving to the next, when I get the entire foundation completed I will then start to address these alternate rules and moving them into place. This is also why you see extra space on the UI and not trying to just fill it up. I know more is coming and want room to add it.
[...]
Seems we agree on something, a successful d20 application needs to have three aspects: A good User Interface, Functionality and Data. Every application to date at best achieves 2 of the three and many just hit 1. NPC Designer is no different as fails to hit the data and the user interface is at best decent (I am not going to take shots at other's software so will take shots at my own). So with listening to NPC Designer users for the last 18+ months, watching the development of RPG Toolkit and RPGXplorer the time is perfect.

One idea:
Maybe it is advisable to keep the editor "pluggable".
D&D has a few aspects that work in this way. Just think of magic. There are few basic "spell concepts" - like calculating saving throw DCs. But specifics like mana points, power points, spell slots, spells readied and spells known are highly adaptable. Just as a magic system is a "plug-in" for the D&D ruleset, it can also be a plug-in for the editor.
But on the other hand, designing a plug-in architecture is a lot of work (The afromentioned C# project used such an architecture, but we had luck that the ground work was already layed in a master thesis by a fellow student)

 

[Mercule]

Mercule: I have been debating on if a Per level breakdown would be needed, honestly you just sold me on the idea. We already have started work on a type of version control for the PC/NPC though which should also assist in handling this feature as well.

Very cool. When I gave creating a character gen tool a shot a couple years ago (before I realized I had nowhere near enough time), one thing that I noticed is that the d20 rules actually work fairly well in an OO paradigm. Two observations, in particular, are probably worth mentioning*.

1) A character may be better represented as a collection of Level objects than as a collection of Class objects. Think about how multiclassing works. You will be taking the next numbered level for sure, but you could drop any class into that level.

2) A huge number of ability types, from class abilities to feats to divine salient abilities, are pretty much the same sort of building block. PCGen kinda handles this by calling everything a "feat", but I think it could be a cornerstone of an extensible campaign engine.

* -- These may not be groundbreaking by any means. I thought they were interesting observations when I first made them, but I have no ego at stake with them. If you think I'm completely daft and go on to make a great tool, I'll still use it. If the idea sparks something, then I'm happy to have helped.

LST Format Data: Yes, there is a seperate tool that converts the data over to something Evolution can use. At present the conversion process is at 100%, meaning I have not had to go in by hand to clean anything up before or after.

All I can say is: Excellent. If you can do what PCGen does, import my LST files, and give me a better interface for tweaking, I'm sold already.

Different Rules: I am already looking at many forms, not just what you said but also Mr Cook's AE and IH.

Oh, yeah. Iron Heroes. Those skill groups are going to be tricky. I hope you can get it to work, because I'm seriously thinking about adopting that idea for D&D.

Init/Combat Tracker: We had this conversation a few months ago

Was it you I promised some code snippets to? I know I did for someone, but then ended up getting really, really busy (seems like it was when I did a stint of 16 hr days at work).

 

[Wonko the Sane]

I've been using (and enjoying) NPC Generator for awhile now, and I have one question:

Does this mean NPC Generator is dying/dead?

 

[Vascant]

Mustrum_Ridcully:
.Net, yea have notices a few things I do not like. I am not worried about what MS does or doesn't do personally. This is not a paycheck for me as I am already retired.

Correct LST Format is not in XML so all I did was create a conversion process that creates source code from it.

Plugin: Some of that is already done and some isn't, really depends on the system and how far along I am in coding and answering some design questions. I learned some valuable lessons with NPC Designer concerning giving control over to users, mostly they don't do much with it and just ask for me to make the changes. So while giving users the ability to make changes is present I am also trying not to teach people how to code either. Case in point if you see in the Skill UI; Favored, Favored Ranks, Skill Limits and Rank Limits, those are details that in NPC Designer are available to be changed but in the script files. Now users have a cleaner appoach to making such changes to the NPC.

 

[mattcolville]

Seems we agree on something, a successful d20 application needs to have three aspects: A good User Interface, Functionality and Data.

I've been watching the development of D&D software for six years now and I'm astonished that no one seems to understand this.

 

[mattcolville]

I've been using (and enjoying) NPC Generator for awhile now, and I have one question:

Does this mean NPC Generator is dying/dead?

There was a thread a while ago from Vascant in which he announced he was no longer supporting NPCDesigner because it's core design wasn't flexible enough.