Expanding On Game Design [Learning From Game Designers]

[Pedantic]

Netrunner has ruined me for most other card games. Trying to play Magic is very painful when you realize you're not just allowed to draw cards when you don't have an answer to the current board situation, or how little your opponent's board state matters to what cards you'll play.

When talking about card games with my friends familiar with it, we usually start with the question "is it a dude-basher?" Most other card games are variants on "put dudes on board, bash them together until 1 board sticks and gets to hit the opponent" with variation coming down to "these dudes can ignore those dudes" or "cards that remove dudes without being dudes" or occasionally "cards that stop dudes." Play is largely execution of a plan that was crafted before the game began; you have to respect highlander formats for trying to cut down on that, but the issue is fundamental to the structure of the game.

I've had some fun framing the interactions in Magic as if they were part of different gameplay genres. Consider: what if Magic was a tableau building euro game? The criticism would be "why are there so many take that mechanics?" Conversely, if it was supposed to be a take-that game, you'd wonder why the combos are so powerful. Personally, I think the game really lives on its fantasy, the ponzi-scheme economy around the game, and the ease of access to competition, more than on the underlying mechanics.

 

[Scribe]

 

[Art Waring]

Hey @Scribe here is the earliest interview I can find so far (about 15 years ago now I think) in regards to his opinions on the matter. I originally thought that he meant that no cards should be over 50$, but if you listen carefully I thinkhe is specifically talking about the Standard format, not Vintage or Legacy.


So he is saying that Standard cards should not be over 50$ because that prices some people out of the game. In regards to the current state of MTG I would say that he is actually right, in that card prices (for new reprints of old cards) are coming down for a lot of cards, while the original reserved list (RL) cards are largely unaffected by the reprints (its primarily the newer post RL cards that suffer from loss of value from reprints). While some cards will drop from reprints, most RL cards are actually higher in value now that they were years ago when I quit, which also lines up with his comparison to stamps that accrue value slowly over time. Of course, this is a limited assessment as I have no way to account for mtg investors & speculators, as they do have an effect on the market that can be hard to pin down.

This interview happened last year (during the M30 anniversary, he is doing this interview at the M30 event). He is basically saying the same thing as before, but always with the intention of focusing on the game rather than the collectable aspect. I don't want to get too mired down with talk about financials though as I would prefer to focus on game design. You did ask me for some links though so here are the best interviews I can find on the subject of criticisms.


Of course, we are talking about the first & most successful CCG to date, and the collectable aspect is what some would argue has contributed to its longevity. I personally think that there is a middle ground somewhere, where both the customers can be happy and be able to afford to play the game while collectors can focus on the more high end stuff. I do think that they are trying to meet the demands of both types of customers (precon EDH decks are pretty affordable, and they are getting better at putting better cards into them recently, while they are also selling collector type products like collector boxes and all-foil stuff).

The problem that I see is that sometimes their behavior is way out there in terms of what they are releasing. The M30 set release last year was an obvious example of a greed-driven cash grab, and players responded with a lot of pushback (to this day it is still the most hated mtg product). If you also look at recent sets and the ROI numbers from box openings, you can see that they are overprinting new sets, while the majority of the financial value of each set is limited to a small pool of cards (Mythic cards specifically).

Back in the day you could buy a booster box and typically get your money back (my very first booster box I ever bought was from Alliances, & i got four Force of Will's right out of the box, which were uncommon). Today opening a boosters box can often times result is disappointment, as their new model will have you chasing specific cards, forcing you to buy ever more sealed product. It leads to buyer fatigue, which results in less pack being opened, which then leads to higher single prices on the secondary market due to less people opening packs (the recent Murder Mystery set was not opened as much as other more successful sets, and so cards are shooting up in price. This contributes to a pay to win dynamic, which if not addressed could become an increasing problem (in particular I see this becoming a problem with EDH).

 

[Scribe]

Yeah, I'd say cracking Standard, in rotation packs, and hitting a $50 jackpot is probably flawed. I very much dislike the Masters sets (and Commander specific sets) for this reason.

I mean this card, is dumb. Yes, thats a BOLD and ITALICIZED, DUMB.

Sheoldred, the Apocalypse

{2}{B}{B} • Legendary Creature — Phyrexian Praetor • 4/5 • Deathtouch Whenever you draw a card, you gain 2 life. Whenever an opponent draws a card, they lose 2 life. • Dominaria United (DMU) #107 • Illustrated by Chris Rahn • Magic: The Gathering, MTG

scryfall.com

This card, is also extremely dumb.

Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer

{R} • Legendary Creature — Monkey Pirate • 2/1 • Whenever Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer deals combat damage to a player, create a Treasure token and exile the top card of that player's library. Until end of turn, you may cast that card. Dash {1}{R} (You may cast this spell for its dash cost. If you...

scryfall.com

I was very involved in the game for maybe 10-12 years (after a long long break), starting 15 or so years ago, as Modern was hitting its stride as "the community competitive format". Legacy was too expensive, thanks to Duals, Fetch + Shock lead to a great mana base, and no strategy was really overwhelmingly dominate, until we hit Eldrazi Winter.

This was actually the beginning of the end for me, as we had determined (a group of us on a few different forums) that Wizards was forcing a rotation in Modern every time it came around to a major event (GP/Pro Tour). Forsythe then refused to ban a few of the absolutely broken cards they pushed on us, as he thought (and I still scoff) that the Eldrazi play loops were 'interesting'.

Now after that, it took some time for the format to recover, but eventually it did, thanks to Dominaria.

Fast forward and we get Arena, and then the real disasters of FIRE, the Companion mechanic and finally the 30th Anniversary event. There is also a few rules changes like the London Mulligan that did the game no favours, but it was FIRE doing most of the damage to eternal formats but for my money its Companion that was the real joke.

I think I need to catch myself before I start writing an essay, but this card is one of the worst things ever printed.

Lurrus of the Dream-Den

{1}{W/B}{W/B} • Legendary Creature — Cat Nightmare • 3/2 • Companion — Each permanent card in your starting deck has mana value 2 or less. (If this card is your chosen companion, you may put it into your hand from outside the game for {3} as a sorcery.) Lifelink Once during each of your turns...

scryfall.com

Banned: Pioneer, Modern, Legacy, Explorer. Absolutely toxic mechanic.

I can appreciate the perspective of having the game be about the game, before collectors/speculators. Wizards (under Cocks) forgot that the game COULD have been about the GAME, before their bottom line, as well.

 

[Art Waring]

Yeah, I'd say cracking Standard, in rotation packs, and hitting a $50 jackpot is probably flawed. I very much dislike the Masters sets (and Commander specific sets) for this reason.

Exactly. If you look at the marketing, Masters & (Commander Masters) sets are the best example of the worst marketing for a product (after M30): they are advertised as "premium" products with higher price tags, but the cards are designed specifically for formats like EDH & Modern and they deliberately force older cards to become obsolete, creating forced rotations (which negatively impact players on a budget).

I mean this card, is dumb. Yes, thats a BOLD and ITALICIZED, DUMB.

Yup, I am pretty familiar with all of the recent examples of cards that are format warping. Look no further than the Dockside Extortionist, that is literally the worst example of power creep and simply bad card design. If you watch games with a single Dockside on the table, everybody is cloning it, Saw In Half'ing it, or doing tricks like bouncing or recursion, and it warps the game because now the game revolves around a single card, EDH games can get particularly bad in this case.

I was very involved in the game for maybe 10-12 years, starting 15 or so years ago, as Modern was hitting its stride as "the community competitive format". Legacy was too expensive, thanks to Duals, Fetch + Shock lead to a great mana base, and no strategy was really overwhelmingly dominate, until we hit Eldrazi Winter.

This was actually the beginning of the end for me, as we had determined (a group of us on a few different forums) that Wizards was forcing a rotation in Modern every time it came around to a major event (GP/Pro Tour). Forsythe then refused to ban a few of the absolutely broken cards they pushed on us, as he thought (and I still scoff) that the Eldrazi play loops were 'interesting'.

Now after that, it took some time for the format to recover, but eventually it did, thanks to Dominaria.

I started around revised/4th, and I reached my competitive peak during the Urza's block. I was that guy at your local game store running a Yawgmoth's bargain deck that beat people first or second turn till it got banned. I was young and very, very competitive, my other deck was a mono red Wildfire deck that was just merciless.

After that I got away from Standard and competitive play, and if not for the original EDH I probably would have quit sooner. I officially quit sometime after the whole Eldrazi thing, after I saw the writing on the wall with Mythic rarity, and things like Jace the Mindsculptor, which were 80-100$ each back then when you needed four for your deck, now a 10$ card due to reprints. Not to get financial, but for me it was not incentivizing me to continue playing standard or modern formats.

I am actually sorry that I missed Dominaria, as is seems like they were trying to get back to focusing in the game again.

Fast forward and we get Arena, and then the real disasters of FIRE, the Companion mechanic and finally the 30th Anniversary event. There is also a few rules changes like the London Mulligan that did the game no favours, but it was FIRE doing most of the damage to eternal formats but for my money its Companion that was the real joke.

I think I need to catch myself before I start writing an essay, but this card is one of the worst things ever printed.

Yeah, of the three (companions, M30, & FIRE) I would say FIRE is the best example of a wrong direction to head into full tilt. But I agree companions are ridiculous as a mechanic.

I can appreciate the perspective of having the game be about the game, before collectors/speculators. Wizards (under Cocks) forgot that the game COULD have been about the GAME, before their bottom line, as well.

I hear you. I think that one of the things that has gone under the radar (in terms of MTG), is that under Cocks' supervision mtg (& obviously dnd with the OGL) has made some of its worst decisions for the health of the game for the sake of short term financial gains. One example is their recent removal of any MSRP from any mtg products, allowing scalpers & speculators to jack up prices to insane amounts. They know exactly what they are doing when they do that. Good for them I guess, but maybe not so good for gamers.

 

[Scribe]

I hear you. I think that one of the things that has gone under the radar (in terms of MTG), is that under Cocks' supervision mtg (& obviously dnd with the OGL) has made some of its worst decisions for the health of the game for the sake of short term financial gains. One example is their recent removal of any MSRP from any mtg products, allowing scalpers & speculators to jack up prices to insane amounts. They know exactly what they are doing when they do that. Good for them I guess, but maybe not so good for gamers.

People who look, have figured it out.

His run as President of Wizards, coincides with many of the worst choices in the history of the game and it still gets me tilted, because it wasnt enough to be making year on year profit, they needed even more. Its this little guy's flavour text in a nutshell and it just makes me unbelievably sad.

 

[Art Waring]

People who look, have figured it out.

His run as President of Wizards, coincides with many of the worst choices in the history of the game and it still gets me tilted, because it wasnt enough to be making year on year profit, they needed even more. Its this little guy's flavour text in a nutshell and it just makes me unbelievably sad.

I think that when the Bank of America downgrades your stock & says you need to ease up on the overprinting, maybe they should listen.

Aside from that though, I think that in the long run this kind of thing can't go on forever. Eventually everything buckles under that constant pressure. I just pray that we don't end up with a repeat of history with other failed card games, the dreaded 2nd edition. I could go into an entire conversation about Star Trek 1st editions ever-increasing complexity, and how it eventually broke the back of the game and players bled out in numbers. They tried to save the game with a simpler, cut down 2nd edition, but it was already too late as most players had already jumped ship. This is the risk they are running now.

Learn from history, or forever be doomed to repeat it...

 

[Scribe]

I think that when the Bank of America downgrades your stock & says you need to ease up on the overprinting, maybe they should listen.

Aside from that though, I think that in the long run this kind of thing can't go on forever. Eventually everything buckles under that constant pressure. I just pray that we don't end up with a repeat of history with other failed card games, the dreaded 2nd edition. I could go into an entire conversation about Star Trek 1st editions ever-increasing complexity, and how it eventually broke the back of the game and players bled out in numbers. They tried to save the game with a simpler, cut down 2nd edition, but it was already too late as most players had already jumped ship. This is the risk they are running now.

Learn from history, or forever be doomed to repeat it...

This is why the model MTG had was SO BLOODY GOOD.

deep breathing

Under decades of pressure, thanks to rotation, the health could always be maintained. Thanks to the tenure of the leadership (Forsythe and Maro) there was an institutional knowledge of what actually kept the game healthy.

Power went up? Power went down in the next set/block in response.
A card was simply too good? Yeah it needed a ban.

This is why Companion offends me so much. Maro KNEW it was a mistake. I know it. There is ZERO chance that mechanic is healthy for the game, and he did it anyway. There was even drama with the EDH council over it.

My reaction to it all is out of line with the real importance of MTG in the world, but holy hell am I ever still upset about it all.

 

[Art Waring]

This is why the model MTG had was SO BLOODY GOOD.

deep breathing

Under decades of pressure, thanks to rotation, the health could always be maintained. Thanks to the tenure of the leadership (Forsythe and Maro) there was an institutional knowledge of what actually kept the game healthy.

Power went up? Power went down in the next set/block in response.
A card was simply too good? Yeah it needed a ban.

This is why Companion offends me so much. Maro KNEW it was a mistake. I know it. There is ZERO chance that mechanic is healthy for the game, and he did it anyway. There was even drama with the EDH council over it.

My reaction to it all is out of line with the real importance of MTG in the world, but holy hell am I ever still upset about it all.

Yeah I hear you man. The rotation of sets was crucial, as was a comprehensive knowledge (or as you say institutional knowledge) of how the game works as a product and as a competitive format.

I know you point out that Companion cards were a terrible design choice, and I agree, but I think it also bears mentioning that they have not learned from those mistakes like they have in the past.

Banning cards is now somehow taboo. Both Wotc & the EDH Rules Committee (known as the RC) have not made significant bannings to EDH in years. I suspect that they are no longer able to make rulings without the approval of wotc. The RC's policy is essentially to "Rule 0" everything, which is handwaving any responsibility for the format onto players (many of which play at LGS' where Rule 0 does not work out well).

For example, the most recent card under the lens for banning is Nadu, but everyone knows that they won't ban Nadu in modern because that would mean they would have to admit to making a mistake in design, so instead they will ban the card that combo's with Nadu (that would be the equipment card Shuko). When Shuko gets banned, and it likely will instead of the offending card Nadu, and then the Nadu player will just take the Shuko's out of their deck and replace the with Lightning Greaves. The deck still gets its combo piece, and nothing has changed at all. They get to pretend they addressed the problem in modern, when in time they will then have to ban the greaves and so on...

EDH is much worse, because not only are the RC never going to ban Nadu, they aren't even going to be welcome to the discussion of banning anything. They are essentially a self-selected group of people with their hands perpetually tied by their close connection to Wizards. At the moment I think that they do contribute as consultants on EDH cards, but if that is the case then they are not doing their job very well (as they maintain that they are trying to keep EDH a healthy format, but can't stop the release of format warping cards).

The most obvious example of this is cEDH (competitive EDH) as a growing format. The RC doesn't want to acknowledge the existence of cEDH because they don't want to split up the format, but they also can't decide what is casual and what isn't (just Rule-0 it!). In game stores, everyones deck is a 7 in terms of power level (from 1 to 10), and that means absolutely nothing because nobody is on the same page about what constitutes a power 7 deck and a power 8 deck. Thus leads to differing expectations at the game table, and can lead to less fun at the table.

 

[Stalker0]

I like the rest of the advice you provided, but this one does not mesh with what I learned in college as an English major. Personally, I always keep everything, especially first drafts because they can contain your unfiltered ideas, or quirky insights that you can expand on and evolve over time.

My personal process involves multiple drafts & iterations, then I take what I like form each one to make a cohesive piece from the best parts. That is just me though, each writer has their own process.

Yeah I meant it for emphasis, I didn't mean literally ball up the first draft and toss it. I meant it as "don't get tied to your first draft, its a starting point, but often you will come up with better ideas in the 2nd and that's perfectly fine and good, people shouldn't get tied to an idea just because it was in the first one"