Exception-Based Design? How About Exception-Based Playing?

[IceFractal]

Now that people have actually been playing 4E (and can admit such), and we've got more solid info, I've got a question. How well does 4E handle PC deviousness?


Personally, I don't play RPGs to hear a story - there are novels and movies with much better plots than any DM I know can come up with. And I don't play them for pure tactical gameplay - computer games like deliver that much faster, with graphics to boot. I play them because they "know no limit"
In, say, Diablo, if you come across a locked door that needs a special key, you better go get that key. In D&D, you can break the door, or tunnel through the wall, or teleport in, or stake out the place until someone opens the door, or disguise yourself as a Djinni Wish-Salesman and knock. Or you can go get the key - that's fine most of the time, but the fact that you have a choice is important.

So when I play D&D, I'm usually looking for devious ways to solve problems, in all defiance of the "proper" adventure path. And that applies to monsters especially - I'll try to dodge around the zombie army entirely and hide under the necromancer's bed to ambush him. I'll steal the demon knight's firebreathing horse and rent it out. And to bring up something from another thread, if we ever fought that FC2 devil with awesome but insta-corroding armor, I would totally knock it out, rip off it's armor, petrify it (but not kill it), and wear the armor (+17 AC!).


But how well does this work with 4E's "exception-based" monster design? From what I've seen so far, the monsters are chock-full of special not-for-PCs equipment, important abilties that aren't defined because they aren't used in combat, and stats that assume you're fighting the monster in normal conditions (armor which grants an undefined bonus can be problematic if the monster is captured, stripped of armor, and then wakes up and tries to fight).

But appearances can be decieving; maybe 4E handles all these things through stuff in the DMG I haven't seen. So I'm asking - has anyone tried being a devious bastard in 4E, and how well does the system handle it?

 

[Kordeth]

But how well does this work with 4E's "exception-based" monster design? From what I've seen so far, the monsters are chock-full of special not-for-PCs equipment,

People keep saying this, but I see nothing supporting it in the game. If you kill those kobold slingers and steal their tanglefoot pots, of course the PCs can use them. What gave you the impression such wouldn't be the case?

important abilties that aren't defined because they aren't used in combat,

I hate to pull the "old editions" card, but my 2nd Edition MM didn't have squat as far as non-combat abilities on the majority of monsters, and I was always able to adjudicate player deviousness just fine. If anything, it makes it easier, because as DM I can decide just how well the monster will be able to react to whatever plan the PCs come up with rather than being hemmed in by a stat block.

and stats that assume you're fighting the monster in normal conditions (armor which grants an undefined bonus can be problematic if the monster is captured, stripped of armor, and then wakes up and tries to fight).

Easy: the armor bonuses are standard, any difference in AC is the nebulous "monster bonus."

 

[Stalker0]

Easy: the armor bonuses are standard, any difference in AC is the nebulous "monster bonus."

Also known in 3.5 as the "natural armor bonus"

 

[WhatGravitas]

But appearances can be decieving; maybe 4E handles all these things through stuff in the DMG I haven't seen. So I'm asking - has anyone tried being a devious bastard in 4E, and how well does the system handle it?

I guess you should get you're DM a copy of "Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering", because it sounds like you're a tactician-player type (even why you're worried).

Eh, yeah, something like that has less to do with the system, but rather with the DM knowing that and planning for that.

Cheers, LT.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

People keep saying this, but I see nothing supporting it in the game. If you kill those kobold slingers and steal their tanglefoot pots, of course the PCs can use them. What gave you the impression such wouldn't be the case?

One point he does have is that the monster stat blocks don't give you any real indication of what the monster would do if it was stripped of weapons. I'm thinking the OP's DM is gonna be coming up with an awful lot of on-the-fly unarmed attack rolls

 

[TerraDave]

maybe I didn't understand the first post...but isn't it more fun with monster deviousness. Those kobolds where devious...but that doesn't stop the PCs! And there is no reason to believe you will have fewer options here then in past editions.

 

[Pbartender]

But appearances can be decieving; maybe 4E handles all these things through stuff in the DMG I haven't seen. So I'm asking - has anyone tried being a devious bastard in 4E, and how well does the system handle it?

According to reports, the system handles it just fine, so long as the DM keeps his head...

But those simple rule changes do make life a hell of a lot easier. During our first game, my intrepid game designer buddy decided to throw a monkey wrench into the works by having his character dive under a table and kick it out from under two guys fighting on top of it. He smiled devilishly, looked at me and asked “How are you gonna rule that…DM?” I glanced at the book for a moment and realized “Strength check against their reflexes.” Huh. He shook his head. Made sense. He made the attack, hit the numbers and all of a sudden he had two opponents prone on the floor. The rules are so straight forward now, on the fly decisions are total cake.

It seems that it's less about including all those details, and more about making an on-the-fly rulings much easier.

 

[Hathorym]

...How well does 4E handle PC deviousness?


Personally, I don't play RPGs to hear a story - there are novels and movies with much better plots than any DM I know can come up with.

I believe that is the crux of your issue right there. You need to meet more DMs, particularly devious ones. The notion that you need a system to counteract player ingenuity, rather than a good DM, is a depressing commentary on your gaming environment. I'm not trying to be insulting. I do, however, believe you owe it to yourself to find a DM that can spin a good yarn and kick your butt in game expectation. Then, you may come back to this post with a completely different take on the entire system, game, and hobby.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Wow, this thread is....a whole lotta nonsense.

But I'll try to take your post seriously, IceFractal, because it's players like you that make me love DMing.

Pbartender's note about easy on-the-fly rulings is perhaps the most relevant. Your DM won't have to think too far outside of the box to make sure you can be devious and creative and the rules can handle it. I've been hearing rumors about stunt systems and the like that might be pretty good, and the fact that Iron Heroes has a pretty good system like that means that it's definately been bouncing around in the head of at least one designer.

Now, it might be that your DM is going to need something a little more rugged to handle an extended excursion, depending on how far you want to take it, but it looks like, for most stuff, your DM won't be caught too off-guard, and will have the power to tell you what dice to roll to do what you want.

It might not be an effective a tactic as it once was. Like the armor issue pointed out, there's a lot of DM Cheating Room where he can effectively give his monster an AC of Inifinity, but if you somehow charm, trap, or strip his armor off, he won't loose that AC, and if you put on his armor, you won't gain his AC.

If that satisfies you, you're good. I'm not so sure it would satisfy me.

 

[davethegame]

In the games I played and heard about, there was a good amount of PCs using combat abilities in non-combat situations. At-will Mage Hand and Ghost Sound from the Wizard got used the most in that way from what I heard. Pulling down tents, distracting guards, and confusing bugbears all happened. Plus we were encouraged to try them because they were at will, instead of having to memorize Ray of Frost instead or whatever.