Exp. leaches?

[hong]

Hi!

Cannot follow....

Why should the ruling of the DM be stupid, hong?

If you slaughter a pig you are in no real danger, are you?

So, why should you get any XP for doing something that does not derserve it?

Where to begin?

From a narrative point of view, XP are a player reward for doing things that further the plot or storyline. By defeating the fire elemental, you are doing just that, even if it doesn't necessarily entail risk to the PCs. Therefore you should get XP.

From a gameplay point of view, XP are a player reward for solving problems and overcoming challenges. By defeating the fire elemental, you did that, and furthermore, you did so the smart way, with minimal use of resources. Therefore, you should get XP. It doesn't matter if you do it intelligently or stupidly, the important thing is whether you get the job done.

From a world-simulation point of view, XP represent, well, the experience a character gains at doing stuff. Defeating the fire elemental in a smart way is a gainful experience. If you didn't award XP for doing things the smart way, then the only way to advance would be to keep doing stupid things and/or getting beaten to a pulp, which is pretty ridiculous.

From an adventure design point of view, XP are a way to compensate for using up resources. By casting a spell (magic circle vs evil) you did that. Hit points are not the sum total of a party's resources.

Finally, being able to overcome an encounter with minimal physical risk is hardly something that will be a rare occurrence in D&D, or any other game. If someone casts hold monster on a creature, and then they CDG it, would you dock XP? What if they dim door past it? Or just talk their way past it?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

If you slaughter a pig you are in no real danger, are you?

So, why should you get any XP for doing something that does not derserve it?

Yes, you do get the 100% of the recommended xp for slaughtering a pig: 0.

And, yes, you should get the recommended xp for slaughtering a level appropriate Fire Elemental.

The question Fire Elemental anecdote raises is whether PCs should be docked xps if they make it look easy.

It is inevitable that competent PCs will make some level appropriate obstacles look easy and find other level appropriate challenges very troublesome. That is because party strengths and tactics vary. As long as the DM mixes up encounter types, this will average out over time. To give less xp for easy encounters and more for difficult one set up the dynamic of punishing cleverness and rewarding stupidity. In time, the players will adjust "appropriately" to the reward system.

 

[LazerPointer]

I think level 18 parties shouldn't care about losing a bit of XP for one adventure.

 

[Numion]

As I see it, the goal is crossing the dangerous swamp and that should earn xp appropriate to a competent party of their size overcoming the likely obstacles. Do not reward them extra for purposefully doing so less skillfully.

Would you lessen the rewards if the PCs did even a more sensible choice: hired a bunch of them rangers and sent them on the quest, while PCs enjoyed the day at the inn?

It's a choice - doing it themselves is more difficult, and thus more rewarding like things in real life, IMHO.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Would you lessen the rewards if the PCs did even a more sensible choice: hired a bunch of them rangers and sent them on the quest, while PCs enjoyed the day at the inn?

It's a choice - doing it themselves is more difficult, and thus more rewarding like things in real life, IMHO.

So you would charge the Fire Elemental for the xp, too?

 

[Hypersmurf]

So you would charge the Fire Elemental for the xp, too?

Heh. In our case, we saw the fire elemental, and thought "Looks like a dead end... nothing we need in there... let's leave him alone."

The DM raised an eyebrow, caught the cleric's eye, and began reciting from his deity's doctrine... "Only in combat can a man prove his worth; only a coward avoids a fight; glory is found in battle"... etc, etc...

"Gosh," the player eventually sighed... not putting quite the enthusiasm into it that the character was probably showing. "That elemental sure looks tough, doesn't it?"

That bloody deity's got us into a few fights we would have preferred to walk around...

-Hyp.

 

[D+1]

DMG p38, footnote to table 2-6: "The table doesn't support awards for encounters 8 or more CR's higher than the characters level. If the party is taking on challenges that far above their level something strange is going on. and the DM needs to think carefully about the awards rather than just taking them off a table."

The situation you describe defintely qualifies. Those 3rd level characters may be getting SOMEthing from a CR18 encounter, but mostly it's just so insanely over their heads they couldn't hope to meaningfully contribute to what's happening. The table maxes out for 3rd level characters at CR10 (10,000xp) but it seems pretty clear that since they are not in a party of OTHER 3rd level characters that the table simply CANNOT apply to their xp award. If they at least attempt to do what they can in such an encounter then give them a little something in the way of xp. Since this is at least an EL +2 then I'd give them an xp award of their level=CR(+2CR), or 1800 xp simply for being there and trying to help. Maybe level=CR(+3), or 2700 if their mere attempt at participation is especially dangerous. Beyond that they DO NOT BELONG THERE. They should be by-standing spectators to the PC's exploits - NOT considered as full-fledged members of the party.

As Hypersmurf said, the treasure distribution is strictly an in-game thing but the NPC's should not be expecting much (if anything) for their troubles. The fact is that 3rd level NPC's are being BABYSAT by the 18th level PC's no matter how you slice it (unless the PC's are VERY cold-hearted). The babysitter may give a kid a treat for helping clean up the dinner table by putting a plate in the sink - but they don't then get to stay up and watch R-rated T&A flicks on cable until midnight. It's strictly up to the PC's what arrangements they want to make on that score, but it would be unreasonable of low level NPC's to expect to be treated as equals with party members.

 

[Storm Raven]

A party of four 18th level characters escorting a pair of 3rd level druids about has an effective party level of 13. They should, as a result, be getting significantly more experience from encounters than they would otherwise, even dividing up the experience on an equal basis with the druids. I'm not sure why the PCs would complain about this.

 

[Nail]

Re: Holding back the Fire Elemental with Magic Circle and not getting full XP

A challenge was overcome. PCs get XP for overcoming challenges. PCs do not get XP for expending (or not expending) resources. Completely different topic. Therefore PCs should get full XP.....except......(see below).

BTW: The spell Magic Circle only holds back elementals (and others, etc) that are Summoned (and non-Good, typically). That implies either

• a) The DM and players made an error, the elemental was not summoned (perhaps "called" by Planar Binging?) and should have been able to attack, or
• b) someone/something summoned it, and therefore you get no XP for defeating the elemental => you get XP for defeating the summoner, whenever that would be.

Sounds like a major problem either way! Opps!!

Hyper, I'm surprised you didn't catch this!

 

[irdeggman]

As was pointed out earlier cohorts recieve 1/2 the exp awarded to the character they are associated with - but don't count when dividing PCs exp by number of characters involved.

Followers receive no exp. There are no henchmen in 3.5.

Now the other shoe, all characters present count when determining the EL of the party. The average level of the part +1 for every 2 characters beyond 4. {I got this from the Sage via e-mail a while ago).

So those low level NPCs help modify the EL of the party, hence they are contributing to the exp the party can gain. Since they are neither followers nor cohorts they would count as another character in all regards. Since exp is the only thing in question here, treasure division is always up to the players/characters.