Expanded ECL rules!

[CRGreathouse]

That pretty much assumes that everyone you meet is the same level/CR as you.

Of course.

If a level 4 character was willing to 'spend' half a level to get SR 15 (by taking a race with it, of course), would a 50th level character be willing to 'spend' 11+ levels for the same benefit (actually less, since casters will be more likely to have GSP and have the possibility to have ESP)?

Perhaps it's just me, but while Ican see 'spending' half a level for that benefit, I can't imagine spending a dozen. Would you?

 

[CRGreathouse]

DR 5/+1 = +0.5 ECL

DR 35/+7 = +3.5 ECL

Hardness 10/- = +1 ECL

So ECL (DR 50/silver) = ECL (DR 50/+10) = ECL (Hardness 50)?

...A level 2 character with FH 5 is ECL 2.5/CR 2.5

A 50th-level character with FH 5 is ECL 50.5/CR 32

Obviously the Fast Healing has more impact on the CR of the 2nd-level character; but the powers can still be rated the same with regards ECL.

I know that's how it works in your system - I'm debating the validity of the system itself! Fast Healing 5 is about a third of the second level character's hit points, but an insignificant portion of the 50th level character's (<1%). How can they be worth the same?

 

[Anubis]

I know that's how it works in your system - I'm debating the validity of the system itself! Fast Healing 5 is about a third of the second level character's hit points, but an insignificant portion of the 50th level character's (<1%). How can they be worth the same?

I can answer that. The point is that challenge and power is based on CR, not ECL, and CR is based on total ECL. The thing is, as you gain more levels, it takes more and more ECL to increase CR. At Level 5, ECL +1 = CR +1. At Level 35, ECL +1 equals CR +0.5. At Level 55, ECL +1 = CR +0.25.

In other words, the power is worth the same ECL, but the ECL isn't worth the same CR, and thus isn't as powerful.

 

[Anubis]

Just to fan the flames...some of the ideas I am testing include:

+1 ECL/2 Hit Dice for Dragons; Outsiders; Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Shapechangers

+1 ECL/3 Hit Dice for Aberrations, Elementals, Fey, Giant, Humanoids.

+1 ECL/4 Hit Dice for Animals, Beasts, Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead, Vermin.

+1 ECL/5 Hit Dice for Skeletons, Zombies.

Integrated Classes dropped to +3/4 ECL

Spell Resistance: +1/2 per 5 points of SR above 10.

Damage Reduction: +1/2 per 5/+1 (weapon needed to hit).

Fast Healing & Regeneration: +1/2 per 5 points.

Size Factors added as standard.

Hardness/Damage Reduction: +1/2 per 5/- points

Funny . . . I proposed a plan nearly identical to this in my Version 3, although I rated some things higher. Still, you told me that any changes like this hurt the system.

You're welcome, UK. I was happy to bring these points into the discussion. I think you are starting to see that there needs to be a distinction between SR 15 and SR 55.

I'm still working on my final draft.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

I respectfully disagree. I think +3/4 HD should be the top rung, with only dragons and outsiders inhabiting that rung. These two types are clearly far above the rest in power, due to the fighter BAB, having all three goods saves, loads of skill points, and plenty of good feats on top of that. These two are almost as good per hit die as normal characters with levels are.

Technically dragons and outsiders are actually better than PC classes with two notable distinctions. Class features and magic items.

Hence my reduction of Dragons and Outsiders to 1/2 ECL.

Additionally integrated class levels become 3/4 ECL.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

Of course.

If a level 4 character was willing to 'spend' half a level to get SR 15 (by taking a race with it, of course), would a 50th level character be willing to 'spend' 11+ levels for the same benefit (actually less, since casters will be more likely to have GSP and have the possibility to have ESP)?

Perhaps it's just me, but while I can see 'spending' half a level for that benefit, I can't imagine spending a dozen. Would you?

I think you are looking at this the wrong way.

The percentage of opponents able to defeat SR15 and SR61 is going to be markedly different.

 

[Upper_Krust]

So ECL (DR 50/silver) = ECL (DR 50/+10) = ECL (Hardness 50)?

No I don't advocate balancing Damage Reduction on the amount of damage, but rather on the power of the weapon needed to defeat it (with a suggested minimum of 5 per +1)

Upon reflection Hardness should be +1 ECL per 5 points.

I know that's how it works in your system - I'm debating the validity of the system itself! Fast Healing 5 is about a third of the second level character's hit points, but an insignificant portion of the 50th level character's (<1%). How can they be worth the same?

If I have 10gp at 2nd level and 10gp at 50th-level I still have 10gp.

Obviously it means more the lower your level - this is reflected in the characters Challenge Ratings. Weaker powers affect ECL the same regardless of level; but affect CRs less the higher you ascend just like levels in general.

Remember that CRs are modified at high-level in my system.

A 50th-level PC is CR32.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Funny . . . I proposed a plan nearly identical to this in my Version 3, although I rated some things higher. Still, you told me that any changes like this hurt the system.

Shows you what I know!

That said, anything that adds complexity should always be avoided if possible. Sticking to the contents of the Monster Manual it was possible, however, this is not the case with the Epic Level Handbook.

You're welcome, UK. I was happy to bring these points into the discussion.

I appreciate the help mate.

I think you are starting to see that there needs to be a distinction between SR 15 and SR 55.

I knew needed some revisions after perusing some of the epic monsters, things like the Devastation Vermin and Prismatic Dragons just didn't convert satisfactorily.

I'm still working on my final draft.

Good luck with that.

Technically we should all end up with the same results.

 

[Anubis]

Hello mate!



Technically dragons and outsiders are actually better than PC classes with two notable distinctions. Class features and magic items.

Hence my reduction of Dragons and Outsiders to 1/2 ECL.

Additionally integrated class levels become 3/4 ECL.

You just contradicted yourself, man. First you say that dragons and outsiders are better than characters except for class abilities and equipment, then you say that's why you lowered them down to +1/2 HD.

Makes no sense.

Characters, per level, are almost equal to dragons and outsiders, yet you count them as having half as much power?

Like I said, makes no sense. Dragons are already underestimated enough. You think they should be bumped down even further?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

You just contradicted yourself, man.

No I didn't...

First you say that dragons and outsiders are better than characters except for class abilities and equipment,

...thats right...

then you say that's why you lowered them down to +1/2 HD.

Makes no sense.

...it makes perfect sense...

Characters, per level, are almost equal to dragons and outsiders, yet you count them as having half as much power?

I consider class levels and PC wealth/items responsible for half a characters measure of power in 3rd Ed.

Less so for spellcasting classes but remember they would be reduced anyway since they have weaker hit dice and combat abilities so that evens out.

3rd Ed. is EXTREMELY magic item orientated!

Like I said, makes no sense. Dragons are already underestimated enough. You think they should be bumped down even further?

I don't make these claims lightly...that said I haven't finalised my ideas yet.