Expanded ECL rules!

OK, so part of a chars power comes from his items (and I agree it is a significant part), but the funny thing is, the higher you make the ECL per HD ratio, the closer the dragon gets to having an equal amount of items to a PC with an equal number of class levels (assuming standard race). ;)

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Compare 10 dragon HD to 10 fighter levels, and the dragon comes out ahead (granted the fighter has more feats, but the dragon more than compensates with good Ref and Will saves and 4! more skill points per hd (minus 6 for the x4 the fighter gets)).

Compare 10 dragon HD to 10 cleric levels and the dragon loses out. Same with a wizard.

Such is the business of determining ECLs. :)

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Final note: I assume we abandoned the ridiculous idea that a wiz 5 - monk 5 is as powerful as either a wiz 10 or (even) a monk 10, right?
 

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Hi Soldarin mate! :)

Soldarin said:
OK, so part of a chars power comes from his items (and I agree it is a significant part), but the funny thing is, the higher you make the ECL per HD ratio, the closer the dragon gets to having an equal amount of items to a PC with an equal number of class levels (assuming standard race). ;)

Upon finishing testing +3/4 for Dragons and Outsiders seems best.

Annoyingly though, if I retain my previous method for Dragons (+3/4 HD; Integrated Levels = 1) then all the Great Wyrm Dragons finish between ECL 42 (White) and ECL 47 (Gold). This means they are either CR 30 or CR 31.

That may take some playtesting - I am not totally convinced that a Great Wyrm White Dragon is roughly equal to a party of four 26th-level characters?

Soldarin said:
Compare 10 dragon HD to 10 fighter levels, and the dragon comes out ahead (granted the fighter has more feats, but the dragon more than compensates with good Ref and Will saves and 4! more skill points per hd (minus 6 for the x4 the fighter gets)).

Compare 10 dragon HD to 10 cleric levels and the dragon loses out. Same with a wizard.

Such is the business of determining ECLs. :)

Remember that a Dragons combat statistics will be far superior to a Wizard or Cleric though, and they have all good saves and better skills.

Soldarin said:
Final note: I assume we abandoned the ridiculous idea that a wiz 5 - monk 5 is as powerful as either a wiz 10 or (even) a monk 10, right?

I don't see how else to approach this. As I see it the difference should be negligable, obviously its the access to higher level spells thats the 'fly in the ointment'.
 

Upper_Krust said:

Upon finishing testing +3/4 for Dragons and Outsiders seems best.

Annoyingly though, if I retain my previous method for Dragons (+3/4 HD; Integrated Levels = 1) then all the Great Wyrm Dragons finish between ECL 42 (White) and ECL 47 (Gold). This means they are either CR 30 or CR 31.

This is simple enough to solve. All you need to do is leave dragons and outsiders at +3 ECL/4 HD, but lower the modifier for integrated levels to +1/2 ECL per integrated level.

Upper_Krust said:

That may take some playtesting - I am not totally convinced that a Great Wyrm White Dragon is roughly equal to a party of four 26th-level characters?

Did you change your rules again? I thought you determined challenge based on monster CR against party CR? In that case, wouldn't the ECL 42/CR 30 Great Wyrm White Dragon be a challenge for four characters of Level 40-43 (Party CR 30)?

Please clarify . . .

Upper_Krust said:

I don't see how else to approach this. As I see it the difference should be negligable, obviously its the access to higher level spells thats the 'fly in the ointment'.

For simplicity and balance, we should leave this alone. As my Saiyan shows, you should modify ECL a bit for "potential".
 

Expanded ECL rules! (Version 4)

I've finally finished! After taking what UK had along with his article in Asgard 6 and combining it with a few ideas of my own, I think I have what could be the cloest thing to a perfect system that we're gonna get.



REVISED ECL/CR RULES V.4

Determining ECL:

CLASS ECL MODIFIERS

+1 ECL per Class Level*
+1/2 ECL per Integrated Class Levels**

*Commoners receive +1 ECL/2 Levels. All other NPC classes receive +3 ECL/4 Levels.
**Integrated Class Levels are when a creature has, for instance, the spellcasting abilities of a Level 20 Wizard or a Level 20 Cleric, such as a Titan. (A Titan would receive +10 ECL for 20 Integrated Class Levels.)

DIVINE ECL MODIFIERS

+10 ECL for Divine Rank 0
+20 ECL for Divine Rank 1
+4 ECL per Divine Rank over Divine Rank 1

HIT DICE ECL MODIFIERS

+3 ECL/4 Hit Dice (75%) for Dragons and Outsiders
+1 ECL/2 Hit Dice (50%) for Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Shapechangers
+1 ECL/3 Hit Dice (33%) for Aberrations, Elementals, Fey, Giant, Humanoids, Undead (except for Skeletons and Zombies)
+1 ECL/4 Hit Dice (25%) for Animals, Beasts, Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead (Skeletons and Zombies), Vermin
+1 ECL per +1 CR increase of a Template

ABILITY SCORE MODIFIERS

+1/-1 ECL per +10/-10 total modifier to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution and +20/-20 total modifier to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, minimum +1/-1 per grouping (i.e. an athach has Str 27, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 6, which constitutes Str +16, Dex +2, and Con +10 for a +28 total for +2 ECL, Int -4, Wis +2, and Cha -4 for a -6 total for -1 ECL, giving the Athach ECL +1 total for ability scores modifiers)

SPECIFIC SPECIAL ABILITIY MODIFIERS

+1/2 ECL per 5/+1 Damage Reduction
+1/2 ECL per 5 points of Spell Resistance over 10
+1/2 ECL per Energy Resistance
+1 ECL per Energy Immunity
+1/2 ECL per 5 Fast Healing or Regeneration
+1 ECL if creature has Spell-Like Abilities that duplicate 1st-3rd level spells that are usable at will (half that if usable a certain number of times per day, quarter that if usable once per day or less)
+2 ECL if creature has Spell-Like Abilities that duplicate 4th-6th level spells that are usable at will (half that if usable a certain number of times per day, quarter that if usable once per day or less)
+3 ECL if creature has Spell-Like Abilities that duplicate 7th-9th level spells that are usable at will (half that if usable a certain number of times per day, quarter that if usable once per day or less)
+4 ECL if creature has Spell-Like Abilities that duplicate spells of 10th level and above that are usable at will (half that if usable a certain number of times per day, quarter that if usable once per day or less)
+2 ECL per 100 Spellcraft DC of Spell-Like Abilities that duplicate Epic Spells that are usable at will (half that if usable a certain number of times per day, quarter that if usable once per day or less)
+2 ECL for Blindsight
+1 ECL per appendage over two
+1 ECL per 100% increase in movement over standard movement based on size
+(Creature's Hit Dice ECL Modifier) if the creature can summon more of its own kind, multipled by the number of times per day it may summon (i.e. a Hecatoncheires can summon another of its kind once per day, so it receives +41 ECL because it is intially ECL +41 for being an Outsider)

OTHER ABILITIES

All other Special Abilities are subject to the DM's discretion based on relative power.

For the purposes of this system, ECL equals CR in all cases. For CRs over 20, use the following table, borrowed from UK's article in Asgard 6:

ECL --- CR
1-20 --- +1/Level
21-40 --- +1/2 Levels
41-80 --- +1/4 Levels
81-160 --- +1/8 Levels
161-320 --- +1/16 Levels

This format can be continued indefinitely as ECL and CR increases.



UK and I are still debating the divinity issue, but that may be close to a resolution, although a few issues about our test still need to be gone over. Other than that, what do you all think? UK? (Don't worry about the divinity one for now, just tell me what you think about the rest.)
 

Hi all! :)

Sorry for the slow response, a friend of mine is getting married in two weeks and I had a batchelor party to take care of yesterday. :p

I'll respond to the last few posts in more detail later.

However, in one of the Monster Manual 2 threads I asked the creator of the Titanic Template what ECL increase it gave and I thought he mentioned +12.

Does anyone here have the Monster Manual 2 yet and can confirm that. Can they also outline what size it increases the monster to (I think its simply Colossal?)
 

Hi all! :)

Just realised my misgivings over the Titanic Template. I forgot to anticipate that it likely adds some sort of Hit Dice Bonus (or multiplier) as well as simply the size increase itself.
 

UK, I have info for ya', I've been testing some of the expanded ECL rules for both of us, and tested them against existing CRs, and it turns out that your original calculationg of +1/2 ECL per SA or SQ is actually right on the money!

Not doing so results in dragons and outsiders being horribly overrated, but not doing so puts dragons' CRs WAY TOO LOW.

As an example, an Ancient Brown Dragon is NOT CR 20, but rather closer to CR 30. Believe me, I tested this out, and the Ancient Brown Dragon ROLLS over anything close to Level 20.

I think I'm close to figuring everything out.
 

Hi Anubis mate! :)

Anubis said:
UK, I have info for ya', I've been testing some of the expanded ECL rules for both of us, and tested them against existing CRs, and it turns out that your original calculationg of +1/2 ECL per SA or SQ is actually right on the money!

It certainly worked perfectly for all Monster Manual creatures but not necessarily with every creature in the Epic Level Handbook. Devastation Vermin and Prismatic Dragons high damage reduction and spell resistance really makes a big difference.

I had the Monster Manual dragons perfect I think. From CR26-30 (Great Wyrms). But changing this system messes them all up. They either become CR30 or CR31...and I don't really think a Great Wyrm White Dragon is CR30.

Anubis said:
Not doing so results in dragons and outsiders being horribly overrated, but not doing so puts dragons' CRs WAY TOO LOW.

You're confusing me here. :confused:

Anubis said:
As an example, an Ancient Brown Dragon is NOT CR 20, but rather closer to CR 30. Believe me, I tested this out, and the Ancient Brown Dragon ROLLS over anything close to Level 20.

I think I'm close to figuring everything out.

Generally I have found that by leaving a problem for a while then returning to it, the answer will better present itself.
 

Upper_Krust said:

You're confusing me here. :confused:

What I'm saying is that using the revised system you or I came up with that giving seperate ratings to seperate abilities and adding modifiers for size puts the ECL of dragons and outsiders WAY too HIGH. On the other hand, the books rate dragons' CRs WAY too LOW.

You see, I never had a DM play a fully intelligent dragon before, nor have I used every ability at a dragon's disposal before. I have tested this now, however, and when I threw an Ancient Brown Dragon up against a QUASI-DEITY, a SAIYAN, a high-level Cleric/Sacred Fist, and a high-level Sorcerer, the dragon rolled over them like ants without a problem!

I then tested this again even high-level chraracters, and the results were the same! Basically, it's nowhere near Level 20, nor are any of the more powerful dragons! In dungeons they have fewer option, but generally speaking, non-Epic character haven't a chance in Hell against these things when they're played correctly!

Anyway, it is NOT, however, close to Level 40 as the revised rules would suggest. (The ANCIENT BROWN Dragon worked out to be CR 31 this way.)

To be honest, I think we're gonna have to do what WotC did, and make a different system regarding Epic levels. Either that, or only add modifiers to SPECIFIC SAs and SQs. (Some I would keep with modifiers are Blindsight, extra appendages, Epic SR and damage reduction, things like that.)

I'll give you more details as I figure them out. I'm working on it as we speak. Also, there is more I've figured out about our little test, but I'll wait until we've finished before revealing the details. I'm working on some ideas right now.
 

Hello mate! :)

Anubis said:
To be honest, I think we're gonna have to do what WotC did, and make a different system regarding Epic levels.

I'll work it out eventually...always do! ;)

Anubis said:
Either that, or only add modifiers to SPECIFIC SAs and SQs. (Some I would keep with modifiers are Blindsight, extra appendages, Epic SR and damage reduction, things like that).

That was how I was doing things. Damage Reduction; Hardness; Extra Appendages; Size and Spell Resistance are the only modifiers above +1/2 I use (off hand).

I agree though that the Dragons need getting right.
 

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