Experiencing the fiction in RPG play

[hawkeyefan]

I have run adventure paths. I look at them as more like guidelines, as some have ended up very far off what was published, although, I could still mine enough information from the later parts that they didn't become useless. One time, in particular, the players were so surprised that the adventure they loved got poor reviews. Had to explain what they did wasn't that close to the official AP. This wasn't because I'm a brilliant adventure designer, bur because the players pursued their interests, and I moulded my GMing around their characters.

Other times, APs will run pretty much as written, not usually though.

Yeah, that matches my experience pretty well. I tend to lift from published material and then expand and modify on my own prior to starting play, and then even more once play begins and the players start to dictate how things go.

But I have run some published adventures largely as presented and had it go quite well. I don't think there's anything inherently bad about any approach; it's more about expectations and experience being aligned.

 

[Jaeger]

...One of the things I struggle with is how my young DMs view their campaigns.

I run a high school D&D club and to a person the DMs refer to the campaign as their story.

This is textbook BAD DMing 101.

A DM is not there to "create a story". RPG's are not "fiction", they are not a books or movies.

They are Games.

I dislike using the term "Fiction" used when talking about table top RPG's. I see used more and more, and I find it somewhat misleading because the word is most associated with movies, books and Tv. Which table top RPG's are not.

A DM presents a Campaign Setting

The Campaign Setting is a Virtual World. The players then get to interact with that virtual world according to the rules of The Game.

He may present them with adventure hooks, challenges, interesting NPC's, and the consequences of their in game actions. Hopefully in a fair, yet exciting manner.

I... I like that you said "reasonably compelling" here. I agree. I think that very often people see a RPG story the same as they would a story in a book or movie. And I think that can be problematic. We experience a RPG differently than we do a book or any other media. ...

No thinking about it. 100% problematic mentality to have.

An RPG is not a story in any way like a book or a movie.

It is a GAME. First and foremost.

Any "story" part of an RPG is an after-effect that emerges out of gameplay. The story you tell about your characters adventures after the game.

 

[Tony Vargas]

One of the things I struggle with is how my young DMs view their campaigns.
I run a high school D&D club and to a person the DMs refer to the campaign as their story.

How very 90s of them.

It's not my job to teach them the one true way or anything like that ..

sure it is.

 

[pogre]

sure it is.

I agree with your sentiments, but my goal is to provide an inclusive, safe place for the students to engage the game in ways they want.

We have an open table policy and students are free to switch tables at any time. However, friends are the most important factor for teens - they value friendship much more highly than adults. It is the reason that out of five tables - I typically have the smallest number of players (4 or 5).

I cannot see this view of DMing being unique to my young DMs. There was no collusion in their viewpoints - this is how they view the campaign. I have to believe this is a trend among younger DMs - albeit I concede I have a limited local view.

This is textbook BAD DMing 101.

A DM is not there to "create a story". RPG's are not "fiction", they are not a books or movies.

They are Games.

The kids are having fun. We have between 30-40 showing up every week. So while I largely agree with your view - is it BAD DMing if they are enjoying the game with their friends?

Not games I would enjoy as a "mature" gamer, but there is a lot boisterous laughter and smiles every week.

Thus, my reluctance to intercede and 'teach.'

 

[Tony Vargas]

I cannot see this view of DMing being unique to my young DMs. ...I have to believe this is a trend among younger DMs - albeit I concede I have a limited local view.

Seriously, its a trend older than any of them. I wasn't joking about the 90s.

GM-as-storyteller was pretty big 25 or so years ago.

 

[Arilyn]

If the teens are having fun, don't worry about it. As they gain more experience and exposure to the hobby, they'll try different styles, maturing into their preferences in time.

I look back on my first games and shudder, especially my GMing.

 

[Jaeger]

...
The kids are having fun. We have between 30-40 showing up every week. So while I largely agree with your view - is it BAD DMing if they are enjoying the game with their friends?
...

Objectively speaking, yes it is absolutely still BAD DMing.

Just because they are having fun does not mean that they also can't still be doing it wrong.

That being said, I think that your instinct of reluctance to step in is the correct one.

People HATE to be told that they are doing something wrong. Especially when they are busy having fun.

 

[Imaro]

Objectively speaking, yes it is absolutely still BAD DMing.

Just because they are having fun does not mean that they also can't still be doing it wrong.

That being said, I think that your instinct of reluctance to step in is the correct one.

People HATE to be told that they are doing something wrong. Especially when they are busy having fun.

Other than it not aligning with your particular playstyle what exactly makes it objectively bad gm'ing??

Edit: If I and my group decide to run/play a specific module or adventure are we doing it wrong as well?

 

[Jaeger]

Other than it not aligning with your particular playstyle what exactly makes it objectively bad gm'ing??

A Campaign that a DM is running is not a story.

It is a Game where the players are interacting with a living virtual world and finding adventure.

The DM's function is not to tell a story. He is there to run the Game.

He can present the players with various scenarios or missions in the context of the type of campaign the group has chosen to play. The DM as the Master of the virtual world then has the NPC's react to what the characters have done.

But he is not there to ensure a predetermined outcome. His is the master of the virtual world - not the players actions. There literally is no "story" for the DM to tell.

RPG groups do not engage in storytelling. They are playing a Game.

A game, that by design, has no predetermined outcomes.

If the DM is running things so that the plot/story is predetermined, why are you playing a table top RPG? If you are gonna ride the rails you might as well get cool graphics and sound effects to go with it and play the latest cool CRPG.

I reiterate:
Any "story" part of an RPG is an after-effect that emerges out of gameplay. The story you tell about your characters adventures after the game.

Edit: If I and my group decide to run/play a specific module or adventure are we doing it wrong as well?

You're playing a module, whatev's.

They have been a mainstay of the hobby since the beginning. Some are bad some are good.

 

[Campbell]

Campbell's Axiom : Anytime you start a sentence with phrases like All role playing games are like this or All role playing games should be like this you are most likely wrong. Role playing games are a broad category of games just like board games. Like there innumerable ways to play board games there are also innumerable ways to play and run role playing games. This diversity of play is a good thing and should be cherished.

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Speaking personally I am generally not a fan of the story in the sense of a preordained thing the GM reveals to players through play. I generally like to keep the story feral, as a wild thing we all discover through play. However those players are not like wrong to play that way.

Sometimes I like to play Moldvay B/X in which case we are definitely playing a game and story is what happens after if we deign to care. This is also not wrong and kind of amazing.