Expertise and Haste question

[lupo]

If a high level character is hasted (say he is 20th level so he gets 4 attacks with a full attack action)

Now assume the character is hasted

He declares a full attack action with his standard action for the round, takes the attacks as nornal.

Now, with his free haste action, if he were going to take an additional attack, could he apply the expertise feat and get a huge dodge bonus to his AC until his next turn?

Thanks

 

[melkoriii]

Interesting. Expertise says until your next action and you can take it on a normal attack.

So yes that would work.

I will have to try that in my next gaming session.

<From SRD>
Expertise [General]
Prerequisite: Int 13+.
Benefit: When the character uses the attack action or full attack action in melee, the character can take a penalty of as much as -5 on the character's attack and add the same number (up to +5) to the character's Armor Class. This number may not exceed the character's base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until the character's next action. The bonus to the character's Armor Class is a dodge bonus.
Normal: A character not capable of the Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a -4 penalty on attacks and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.
</SRD>

 

[LokiDR]

Commonly, this is used with power attack. Partial charge with power attack, begin full round with no power attack. This gives a better chance on the largest number of attacks.

 

[bret]

Yes, it definately will work.

Don't forget to apply the attack penalty from Expertise to all AoO the character gets.

 

[Mahali]

Commonly, this is used with power attack. Partial charge with power attack, begin full round with no power attack. This gives a better chance on the largest number of attacks.

And commonly pointed out that you can't do this either.

 

[Rashak Mani]

It would work, but since the extra partial action is the last action on the round, he would have all his main attacks (from the BAB)on the following round with the penalty from the Expertise.

First round: Full attack round with no penalty + 1 attack with the penalty of how much you put on your AC
Second round: Full attack round with the same penaltys + 1 extra partial action with no penalty or you could continue using expertise.

 

[Saeviomagy]

You most certainly cannot do it with power attack. Go look at the rules before you say things like that.

Because expertise is worded differently, it does work with expertise.

I would suggest that the wording on expertise should be identical to that of power attack, and hence the decision to use it or not should be taken prior to all attack rolls in a round.

 

[Shin Okada]

Expertise "The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class until your next action."
Power Attack "The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next action."

Both of the feat says "until your next action". This word is somewhat tricky.

At first I thought that the effect ends before I take extra partial action (or when I take a standard/full-round action if I uses extra-partial action first) and it is a reasonable ruling. But even if I am not hasted, I can take a free action or two after making a Power Attack. Cancelling the penalty in this way seem to be not the intention of the rule IMO.

So now I am reading it as "until your next turn." It can be a house rule. But in my games, normal-Full Attack -> partial attack with expertise may work, but Partial Charge with Power Attack -> Full Attack without penalty may not work.

 

[Artoomis]

Power Attack [General]

Prerequisite: Str 13+.

Benefit: On the character's action, before making attack rolls for a round, the character may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed the character's base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage applies until the character's next action.

By the rules as written, you could partial charge with Power Attack and then drop the Power Attack for your regular attack routine.

I suspect this will no longer be true for edition 3.5 - I have a feeling Haste will be changed to be more like d20 Modern.

Haste
Transmutation
Level: Arcane 3; Components: V, S, M; Casting Time: Attack action; Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels); Target: One creature; Duration: 1 round/level; Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless); Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The transmuted creature moves and acts more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.
When making a full attack action, the subject may make one extra attack with any weapon he or she is holding. The attack is made using the character’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit does not actually grant an extra action, so a character can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
The subject gains a +2 dodge bonus to Defense. Any condition that makes the subject lose his or her Dexterity bonus to Defense (if any) also makes the subject lose dodge bonuses.
All of the subject’s modes of movement (including normal movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet (to a maximum of double the subject’s normal speed).
Haste dispels and counters slow.

 

[Mahali]

By the rules as written, you could partial charge with Power Attack and then drop the Power Attack for your regular attack routine.

I suspect this will no longer be true for edition 3.5 - I have a feeling Haste will be changed to be more like d20 Modern.

No it doesn't. With Haste you still only have your round. You just get to do more in your round. Everything you do takes place in that 6 seconds no matter how many Standard, Partial, ME, Free, and non actions you take.