fnwc
Explorer
Word.
Experts on other systems, why aren't they d&d?
- Thread starter Aberzanzorax
- Start date
Interesting aside - the Ship of Theseus discussion is ironic, as for wooden ships there's actually an accepted answer to the question. The "identity" of a wooden ship is attached to the structural keel. That's how they claim that "Old Ironsides" (the USS Constitution) which has had most of it's body replaced over time, is still the same ship, and thus the oldest commissioned warship still afloat.
TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
I did this pole a while ago:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/205162-what-must-d-d-have-giant-poll.html
Actually before 4E, but from it, 4E has these things in common with past editions. Though some parts have changed:
Dice: d20s, d4s, d6s, d8s, d10s, d12s, d100s
Abilities: the classic 6, ranging from 3-18, or (or 19 or 20)
Alignment: chaos, law, evil, good
Races, both in general and specifically: human, dwarf, elf, variant elf, halfling, gnome
Classes, both in general and specifically: : fighter, rogue/thief , wizard/magic-user, cleric, ranger, paladin, barbarian, druid, bard
Character level and XP (for defeating monsters)
HP & AC (as damage avoidance)
“Fire and forget” magic (including more explicit vancian magic for wizards)
Mechanics for listning, sneaking, finding traps, and climbing walls.
Many (statistically) different kinds of armor and weapons
Gems, gold (coins), and magic items
Dungeon, Wilderness, and (maybe) city adventuring
Monsters: dragons, orcs, kobolds, goblins (and kin), giants, trolls, beholders, mind-flayers, drow, giant/dire insects and animals, elementals (and kin), demons and devils, fey, griffons and minators (and so on), dinosaurs, tarasque, evil humans
Whats interesting is that there are plenty of RPGs that have few of things, and or deemphasize them. But there are also plenty of RPGs that have most of these.
But how many have ALL of them? And wouldn't that be a D&D clone?
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/205162-what-must-d-d-have-giant-poll.html
Actually before 4E, but from it, 4E has these things in common with past editions. Though some parts have changed:
Dice: d20s, d4s, d6s, d8s, d10s, d12s, d100s
Abilities: the classic 6, ranging from 3-18, or (or 19 or 20)
Alignment: chaos, law, evil, good
Races, both in general and specifically: human, dwarf, elf, variant elf, halfling, gnome
Classes, both in general and specifically: : fighter, rogue/thief , wizard/magic-user, cleric, ranger, paladin, barbarian, druid, bard
Character level and XP (for defeating monsters)
HP & AC (as damage avoidance)
“Fire and forget” magic (including more explicit vancian magic for wizards)
Mechanics for listning, sneaking, finding traps, and climbing walls.
Many (statistically) different kinds of armor and weapons
Gems, gold (coins), and magic items
Dungeon, Wilderness, and (maybe) city adventuring
Monsters: dragons, orcs, kobolds, goblins (and kin), giants, trolls, beholders, mind-flayers, drow, giant/dire insects and animals, elementals (and kin), demons and devils, fey, griffons and minators (and so on), dinosaurs, tarasque, evil humans
Whats interesting is that there are plenty of RPGs that have few of things, and or deemphasize them. But there are also plenty of RPGs that have most of these.
But how many have ALL of them? And wouldn't that be a D&D clone?
tomBitonti
Hero
That is an interesting question, but it bypasses essential issues: Practically, replacing all of the boards of the ship may not actually recreate the essence of the ship (the boards really won't be identical; the fittings and tightness of the ship will be different, and so forth.) As well, the example can be simplified: If a factory produces nearly identical widgets, can any single widget have a unique identity? The question is also glossing over issues of continuity in time and space, and over issues of continuity of perception. In the end, the question is more interesting because details such as these have been omitted.
The example doesn't really work for the upgrade from 3.5E to 4E, which has not intended to replace boards with nearly identical boards. The replacements are quite different, such that the resulting ship, whether or not it can be considered D&D, is not anywhere the same as 3.5E D&D.
A question that I haven't seen much discussed is the question of what is particular of the D&D play experience?
The example doesn't really work for the upgrade from 3.5E to 4E, which has not intended to replace boards with nearly identical boards. The replacements are quite different, such that the resulting ship, whether or not it can be considered D&D, is not anywhere the same as 3.5E D&D.
A question that I haven't seen much discussed is the question of what is particular of the D&D play experience?
Keefe the Thief
Hero
Ah, i can recount my pet theory. Be aware that you have to think in circles to get it. For this theory, OD&D is proven to be D&D. All other systems that come after it could be D&D, and their "being D&D" is questionable.
So, what does make a system "D&D"? Well, it´s doubt:
f at least a small portion of D&D players doubts that a system is D&D, it is D&D.
See? Pretty easy. Really, test it. It works.
Want proof? Here we go:
- There are people who think that D&D ended with oD&D and everything that came after is a travesty = AD&D is D&D.
- Nobody ever doubted that Rolemaster is not D&D - everbody KNOWS that Rolemaster is not D&D. Ergo, Rolemaster is not D&D.
Etc.
So, what does make a system "D&D"? Well, it´s doubt:
f at least a small portion of D&D players doubts that a system is D&D, it is D&D.
See? Pretty easy. Really, test it. It works.
Want proof? Here we go:
- There are people who think that D&D ended with oD&D and everything that came after is a travesty = AD&D is D&D.
- Nobody ever doubted that Rolemaster is not D&D - everbody KNOWS that Rolemaster is not D&D. Ergo, Rolemaster is not D&D.
Etc.
Aberzanzorax
Hero
At Obryn:
Thanks, and good point.
Maybe the most basic thing that is necessary is that it is called D&D.
That eliminates a lot.
However, (and I don't know enough about Judges Guild's history, so don't take this as libel)... if Judges Guild ripped off AD&D 100%, or maybe Hackmaster did (I know that both are VERY close to D&D). But really...100%...everything BUT the name. It doesn't meet the "necessary" component. But, 4e does met that necessary component.
Which is arguably more D&D?
It's like saying a car has to have the name "Honda" on it to be a Honda. Take an actual Honda Passport and prise off the logo. Now it's not a Honda? (I guess I'm taking issue with the name as "necessary"). Conversely, many Honda Passports were actually made by Isuzu (my wife's was, in fact). They call them I-hondas...as they were made not by Honda, but by another company, in another factory, but with the same specifications.
I get that certain things are more or less necessary, but is the name fully necessary? I question that as a black and white criteria.
Thanks, and good point.
Maybe the most basic thing that is necessary is that it is called D&D.
That eliminates a lot.
However, (and I don't know enough about Judges Guild's history, so don't take this as libel)... if Judges Guild ripped off AD&D 100%, or maybe Hackmaster did (I know that both are VERY close to D&D). But really...100%...everything BUT the name. It doesn't meet the "necessary" component. But, 4e does met that necessary component.
Which is arguably more D&D?
It's like saying a car has to have the name "Honda" on it to be a Honda. Take an actual Honda Passport and prise off the logo. Now it's not a Honda? (I guess I'm taking issue with the name as "necessary"). Conversely, many Honda Passports were actually made by Isuzu (my wife's was, in fact). They call them I-hondas...as they were made not by Honda, but by another company, in another factory, but with the same specifications.
I get that certain things are more or less necessary, but is the name fully necessary? I question that as a black and white criteria.
Aberzanzorax
Hero
@ Terra Dave:
How many have all of them?
Quite a few 3pp d20 products have all of them. So those are D&D?
How many have all of them?
Quite a few 3pp d20 products have all of them. So those are D&D?
Aberzanzorax
Hero
@ Keefe the Thief:
Entertaining criteria.
The flip side of your statement is that if at least a small portion believes it IS D&D, that it is (so that others can doubt the viewpoint of the believers).
So if I can convince several people that Pathfinder is D&D, and then a bunch of others disagree, it MUST be D&D?
Also, notably, your theory excludes OD&D from being D&D!
Entertaining criteria.
The flip side of your statement is that if at least a small portion believes it IS D&D, that it is (so that others can doubt the viewpoint of the believers).
So if I can convince several people that Pathfinder is D&D, and then a bunch of others disagree, it MUST be D&D?
Also, notably, your theory excludes OD&D from being D&D!
So D&D to you dates back to 3E?
My other repsonse was "What's d20's got to do, got to do with it?"
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