Explain Burning Wheel to me

[ThoughtBubble]

You know, I remember an arguement I got into on this forum about weather D&D was a good system for political intrigue. Examples and counter-examples flew. There was some discussion about expectations, and reasonability and such. But really, it all came down to using a system built for the game vs D&D can do anything.

Could I run a political game in D&D? Yeah, but D&D's focused on dungeons and killing stuff, so if there was a political aspect to a game, I imagine that it'd be as a backdrop to dungoneering and killing stuff. If I did run a political game, my political game of D&D would rock, since I'm the best DM I know. But I think that a system more geared towards the political aspects might help, especially if a less talented DM tried it.

I could run a superhero game using D&D. It'd probably be pretty fun. But I chose to use M&M instead. I could run my modern legends (Indiana Jones meets Legend of Zelda) game with D&D, but I chose Grim Tales instead. I could run my Destructive James Bond Misfits game in D&D, but I chose spycraft instead. I bet there's a stack of ENnie award winning games that could be run in D&D. And I bet it'd be a shame to overlook them or talk down to them just because 'D&D can do that'.

On the other hand, this is the D&D and D20 discussion site, so I'm willing to understand that any attempts to talk about non-D20 topics will face an up-hill battle. This is a place for all of us who like our D20s.

Anyway, to contribute to the discussion at hand, I'd imagine that The Burning Wheel has gotten some acclaim because it takes a system of well-built mechanics that all bend towards a similar goal and feel. For the people who like that feel, it's probably a heck of a mindbender when they first get the game going and the feel they want just ooses out, like that extra bit of frosting on a fresh cinnamon roll.

Of course, that assumes that one believes games can have a 'feel' in the first place.

 

[lukzu]

lukzu: Is there any rule that determines what kinds of Beliefs a character may have? I seem to recall they must have at least 3 of them, but I'm now curious as to what (if anything) their nature must be.

You can just call me Luke.

Well, yes and no. There's a big section of the Character Burner that discusses how to write your Beliefs. About having Beliefs that incorporate your past, your present and your future. And about how to write Beliefs so that they contain action, and are not just passive statements. And how advice on how to write Beliefs so they reflect player priorities.

Beyond that, the content and direction of the Beliefs is up to each group and what they want to do with Burning Wheel.

-Luke

 

[Aus_Snow]

OK, well I've just downloaded the intro to BW, as well as the CB intro, just so I'm a bit more well-informed about the whole thing. I've only had a quick glance so far, but I'd say it looks quite well put together at this stage.

Cheers.


edit --- Looks like it's exactly three Beliefs, not "at least". My mistake.

 

[LostSoul]

Now, we come full circle back to the beginning. The player decides. Right then and there? Hell, no! He decides what the big conflicts will be when he writes his Beliefs for his character.

Cool.

 

[Tinner]

Wow. I sooooo didn't expect this much vitriol over my OP!

Let me see if I'm getting the gist here. BW's big differences are:

Speedy Simple Conflict Resolution aka Let it Ride!
Sounds good if you want that kind of game. Reminds me favorably of the Amber Diceless system. Arguably you could say that the AD system was a Let it Ride! model in which you only generated one number EVER.

Character Beliefs that provide story hooks as well as "boosts" for influencing the game.
The first part just sounds like what a smart GM would do with PC backgrounds anyway.
The second reminds me of the old TSR MSH Karma system. Which I was a BIG fan of BTW!
What happens when a PC has fulfilled all his beliefs and goals? Does he pick more or is the game over?

I'm also picking up that one of the big goals of BW is to get the mechanics out of the way of the storytelling, right?
Does that sum it up pretty well, or is there more that I'm missing?

I think I'll try to catch a demo of BW at the next con I hit. It seems like this might be the kind of game that makes more sense when observed than just read.

Thanks to the author for popping in to drop some knowledge. Always appreciated!

 

[Cheiromancer]

I don't know why you guys have to have all these interesting conversations in the middle of the night when I'm not around! j/k

I think that I would use Let It Ride in DnD by having a character make a single d20 roll, and using that roll for each check. Multiple sneak checks (or hide/move silently checks) for getting into and out of the orc camp. Like taking 10, only it might not be 10 that the character rolls.

I would set up some kind of degree of success/degree of failure kind of thing. A high degree of success means it goes smoothly and doesn't take much time. A small degree of failure means that you are spotted and can't complete the task. A high degree of failure means you get captured in the orc camp.

I like the focus on task achievements. You want to find out if there is a coverup; make a roll. If you succeed, you find out. If you don't, you don't.

I like the focus on beliefs. I don't know enough about them yet, but I bet that action points would work well there. When the DM uses them to cause your character problems, you get action points. You can also use action points to further your beliefs/goals. A nice source of plot hooks.

You know how many PCs are friendless orphans whose village was burned by orcs? Usually the players are either lazy, or don't want to have their PC's family kidnapped for the DM's "plot hooks." A DM could find lots of ways to make being a friendless orphan into a fine source/sink for action points. Finding friends and starting a family (or finding people who would act as a surrogate family) would be goals; that's what the character could spend action points on. Or something- I don't know how this business of "buying relationships" works.

Maybe it's just me, but I like game mechanics. Especially ones that can be adopted by the d20 system, as I think mechanics like Let it Ride can be. I don't really care if you cal them "earth shattering game mechanics" or "interesting house rules".

I'm going to have to go check out those downloads. Do they give examples of these "battles of wits"?

 

[Wil]

How would the character know about levels and leveling? That is a player concern, it is not something a character would be legitimately concerned about. The character could be dedicated to becoming a better swordsman or dweomercrafter, but that is not, necessarily, the same as leveling up.

It could be assumed that given the drastic changes to a character when they level up, that it is a known effect in the game world that characters can plan for an anticipate. Dragonbloodeds in Exalted don't know the exact reasons that they Exalt, but they lnow it happens and they can anticipate it. And, since the character does improve when levelling up, then levelling up is becoming a better swordsman. Which brings me back to the point I was making in the first place - that "levelling up" is a roleplaying or character goal. Stating that it isn't is disingenuous, regardless of whether it's purely a game mechanic that the playher knows or it has to do with something that the character would know.

 

[The_Gneech]

I don't know anything about Burning Wheel, so I'm only going by what's in this thread. The first thing that strikes me is that the "sneaking into camp" example stated above sounds like ... well ... a really dull way to play, to me.

I like having the map and playing it all out -- the more detailed, the better! I don't want to make a single roll and summarize a major chunk of the story. I want to be watching through my character's eyes as he slips behind THIS tent, ducks under the eyes of THAT guard, has to deal with finding some horses tied up HERE, etc. That IS the adventure!

Perhaps I'm just not getting the point of the "Let It Ride" rule? But it seems to me that it basically bypasses the whole point of playing.

-The Gneech

 

[Jim Hague]

Luke,

Thanks for responding here! Burning Wheel isn't to my tastes, as a system, but the ideas behind it really intrigue me. And before anyone accuses me of bagging on Forge games, please note - I'm working off and on with the always awesome Keith Senkowski on adapting his Conspiracy of Shadows engine for my own game of alt-historical conspiracy horror, Protocol: Zero. That said...

Have you taken a look at the Spycraft 2.0 book? It seems to address a lot of the issues you have with D&D, giving concrete (ish) rewards for degree of success and relying a lot less on GM Fiat via Action Dice, Campaign Qualities and Dramatic Conflicts. It's rules-medium to low high (if that makes sense). I'd be very interested in seeing what you think of it.

 

[mythusmage]

It could be assumed that given the drastic changes to a character when they level up, that it is a known effect in the game world that characters can plan for an anticipate. Dragonbloodeds in Exalted don't know the exact reasons that they Exalt, but they lnow it happens and they can anticipate it. And, since the character does improve when levelling up, then levelling up is becoming a better swordsman. Which brings me back to the point I was making in the first place - that "levelling up" is a roleplaying or character goal. Stating that it isn't is disingenuous, regardless of whether it's purely a game mechanic that the playher knows or it has to do with something that the character would know.

Wil, you're still confusing player and character knowledge. You know about the mechanics. Your character cannot. There is no way he can know exactly how his world works, because he lives in it. In order for him to know how his world works he would have to step outside it. You are outside your character's world. You can see how it works. He can't. He can't step outside his world, he can't see the mechanics in operation.

He'll know that as he practices a skill he gets better at it. You know that as he gains experience that experience can be, or is, applied in a manner that results in improvement of that skill. Your character becomes Exalted you will know it. All he can know is that he has changed in some manner. He may learn what the change means. He may learn what he has become. But, he may not.

When you play a character in an RPG you are playing somebody living in a different world. Somebody who doesn't, who can't have acess to what you know. For him gaining levels is not a viable goal. Improving is.

Yes, when your character levels up he improves. But that is player knowledge. All the character can know is that he is improving. How he improves, why he improves in game terms is beyond his ken.