Explain why DMPCs are bad to me.

[GoodKingJayIII]

First, I think there is a big differance between a NPC that runs with the party and a 'DMPC'.

I don't.

Gotta disagree with ya, Psion. After all, if there weren't a difference they wouldn't have different names. It just happens that people disagree on the meaning. If DMPCs and NPCs are the same thing, let's get rid of one of those terms and stick with other. I, for one, would be a helluva lot less confused!

 

[rvalle]

I don't.

I guess its a question of ownership. They are not MINE like a PC of mine would be. There is no great sense of loss when one of them dies as its not a part of 'me' like a PC somewhat is. Its just... a part of the world the PC's are in. Just like the other NPC's the players meet but this one sometimes goes out with the party.

I try to make the unique with a personality but I try to do that with each NPC the party runs into (with varying success).

I've played with DMPC's. Its the DM's character that he built up over years of play. These guys are 'just' NPC's to me.

Just my view of course.

rv

 

[Psion]

Gotta disagree with ya, Psion. After all, if there weren't a difference they wouldn't have different names. It just happens that people disagree on the meaning. If DMPCs and NPCs are the same thing, let's get rid of one of those terms and stick with other. I, for one, would be a helluva lot less confused!

They don't mean the same thing.

Random shopkeeps, villains, ingenues, sages, kings, nobles, corrupt guard captains, guild leaders, itinerant priests, and so forth, are all NPCs, but not DMPCs.

The functional omission from the acronym DMPC is the omission of an "N", implying nothing more that giving the character a status or position similar to a PC. Adding any deeper meaning than that taps into emotion caused by non-universally shared experience, making the meaning less intuitive.

There can be poorly run DMPCs and there can be well run DMPCs.

I decline to use the term "DMPC" in the specific way you are demanding I use it.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I've seen a lot of comments along the lines of "DMPCs suck!" and "I hate DMPCs with a passion!".

I don't get it. Why are they so bad? Am I the only person on the planet that doesn't mind DMPCs?

Nope. I don't mind them either, when they are run well.

I've had brushes with a few bad ones occasionally, I admit. But the DM I usually game with has had a DMPC in just about every campaign I have been in except the few most recent... and I don't see the problem.

He usually only brings in a DMPC to cover an area we as PCs don't have covered, like when there were 2 of us, and neither of us a cleric, or when we needed information on a particular city, and we located an ex-resident, who we then had tag along (I want to point out, the DM didn't require us to take him along, the PCs decided to drag him along).

These are examples of DMPCs used correctly. The problem arises from the fact that so very few DMs use them correctly.

Often, a DMPC is the true protagonist of the story the DM is trying to tell, and the actual PCs are his lackeys, companions and cohorts. Being the true protagonist, the DMPC is the central figure in most plot arcs, most scenes and is generally just cooler than the rest of the party.
This is only fun for the DM.

Sure, you can dismiss it as a sign of a bad DM but it's incredibly common for DMPCs to take on this role. As such, the experienced player's first reaction upon seeing a DMPC is to coup de grace the btard the first night camping and blame it on a wild animal; not that they actually do this but they often want to.

 

[Cam Banks]

When I'm running a game, I'm not the star, the players are. If I want to see what a certain kind of character would be like as a PC, I'll use him in somebody else's game, where I can be sure that I'm not the one controlling the NPCs and presenting the world to the other players.

I've heard of people who get very very involved and emotionally invested in an NPC, who for all intents and purposes seems to be their outlet for not being able to be a player often enough. I can't get into that.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[gizmo33]

The traditional style of DnD expects that NPCs are played by the DM according to the logic of the scenario. The DM is not really in a position to solve his own puzzles. The whole idea behind being a player is to figure out "what's behind the next door". The point of being a DM-Player is lost on me. Frankly, given the difficulties that arise from involving other people in your creative vision, I wonder why people who can conceive of a DMPC making sense would bother to play with other people anyway.

But then there are a zillion gaming styles and I'm sure some people don't care about the aspects of the game that would be most compromised by a DM-PC. In a shared story-telling type situation where dice-rolling and player choice is kept to a minimum, then I think the DM-PC would get along fine, just another passanger riding the rails to the same destination.

 

[Transit]

<DM Turbo-Rant Mode On>

You know, DMs wouldn't even need to run DMPCs if there weren't so many gamers out there who want to PLAY the game, but never want to do the WORK of running a game of their own.

Did it ever occur to any of you DMPC haters out there that maybe after spending hours and hours of prep time, and hundreds and hundreds of dollars on books, adventures and miniatures, that the DM just might like to be PART OF THE GAME and not just your own personal World-of-Warcraft-substitute, thanklessly running encounters so that you and the other players can have the fun of "dinging" another level?

Name any other social situation where someone makes an effort to prepare a fun activity for a group of friends, only to have people complain when they actually try to join in on the fun? Think about spending a week planning a party for all of your friends, (food! games! decorations! party favors!) and when the party actually starts they all turn to you and say "what the heck are YOU doing here?"

If a Dm's DMPC is really bugging you, why don't you offer to run the game for a while so he or she can PLAY? Don't want to run the game? Then shut the flumph up about the DMPC.

Frankly, everyone who plays D&D should spend half of their time running games as a DM.

I'll say that again.

Everyone who plays D&D should spend half of their time running games as a DM.

If your time as a DM is close to zero, if you're playing and playing and NEVER doing any of the work, then you've got NO RIGHT complaining about how a DM runs his game, or the fact that he chooses to let his or her own PC join in the fun.

You don't like the DMs DMPC?

Run a game for him to play in, or go find another game.

<DM Turbo-Rant Mode Off>

 

[Brimshack]

<DM Turbo-Rant Mode On>

Did it ever occur to any of you DMPC haters out there that maybe after spending hours and hours of prep time, and hundreds and hundreds of dollars on books, adventures and miniatures, that the DM just might like to be PART OF THE GAME and not just your own personal World-of-Warcraft-substitute, thanklessly running encounters so that you and the other players can have the fun of "dinging" another level?

Name any other social situation where someone makes an effort to prepare a fun activity for a group of friends, only to have people complain when they actually try to join in on the fun? Think about spending a week planning a party for all of your friends, (food! games! decorations! party favors!) and when the party actually starts they all turn to you and say "what the heck are YOU doing here?"

Amen

I will say this, that a lot of the arguments categorically opposed to DMPCs strike me as assuming some specifics about the nature of the game and the style of the play. Valid concerns in themselves, but often inapplicable to other people's approch. If you can't imagine it working out, then it's probably best not to play a character in your own campaign. That just doesn't tell us anything about the way that others run a game.

 

[Dragonbait]

<DM Turbo-Rant Mode On>
Everyone who plays D&D should spend half of their time running games as a DM.
<DM Turbo-Rant Mode Off>

Amen brudda'

<DM Turbo-Rant Mode On>
everything else Transit said
<DM Turbo-Rant Mode Off>

Perhaps I've been unfortunate with dealing with DMPCs, but the rest of what you say does not hold true to my experiences. I've found that most over-the-top DMPCs are used by people whom are almost always players and rarely DMs, not the other way around. The only regular DMs/GMs I know (a whopping 3 people, not including myself, mind you) do not use DMPCs.
Of course, I am not staunchly against DMPCs, I just rarely see them working out.

 

[Odhanan]

The main reason is DMPCs can steal the players thunder. They are easier for the DM to plot around and easier for the DM to make better than the PCs.

That's the substance of the main issue indeed. Once a DM fully understands this, s/he can move on and be able to manipulate DMPCs in a way that focuses the attention on the PCs rather than still it from them.