D&D 5E [+]Exploration Falls Short For Many Groups, Let’s Talk About It

[Epic Meepo]

Would anyone like to start a new thread for talking about curated spell lists and other spellcaster mods? Future me might have trouble finding that conversation if it's buried on page thirty-something in a thread about exploration.

 

[Undrave]

Would anyone like to start a new thread for talking about curated spell lists and other spellcaster mods? Future me might have trouble finding that conversation if it's buried on page thirty-something in a thread about exploration.

No opposition on my part

 

[Epic Meepo]

It seems a poster has already forked some spell-related conversation from the last few pages of this thread into a new thread about bothersome casters/spells. That sounds like a logical place to talk about curated spell lists and other house rules to help curtail the overuse of bothersome spells, exploration-related or otherwise.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The problem with going back to staff or dagger is that the monsters no longer have such low HP. Dealing d4 damage doesn't mean much when an ogre has 59hp instead of 17.

In my view hit points should be lowered across the board anyway.

 

[Hussar]

In my view hit points should be lowered across the board anyway.

It's the perennial problem. Lower the HP and you wind up with 1e style combat where, after a few levels, actual combat is a foregone conclusion where the players blast through multiple encounters without any real challenge unless the DM starts springing Save or Die style effects. Raise the HP to the point where monsters can actually survive against the party for a while and now things like daggers become largely superfluous because you may as well be using harsh language.

I'm really not sure what the solution is.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's the perennial problem. Lower the HP and you wind up with 1e style combat where, after a few levels, actual combat is a foregone conclusion where the players blast through multiple encounters without any real challenge unless the DM starts springing Save or Die style effects. Raise the HP to the point where monsters can actually survive against the party for a while and now things like daggers become largely superfluous because you may as well be using harsh language.

I'm really not sure what the solution is.

I liked 1e-style combat. HP and damage were lowered, and just about everything was more dangerous.

 

[Hussar]

I liked 1e-style combat. HP and damage were lowered, and just about everything was more dangerous.

See, that very much wasn't my experience. AD&D combat was easy. You dropped monsters in the first or second round, most of the time, simply because the monsters were so weak. Like I said, 19 HP ogres died in the first round against the party. AD&D combat became dangerous because of all the stuff that bypassed the combat mechanics like Save or Die effects, or things like Level Drain.

Otherwise? Meh, you could blast through AD&D monsters by the truck full because they were so wimpy. I do appreciate that latter era D&D actually makes combat dangerous, rather than being largely a footnote with the occasional completely random death thrown in.

 

[Micah Sweet]

See, that very much wasn't my experience. AD&D combat was easy. You dropped monsters in the first or second round, most of the time, simply because the monsters were so weak. Like I said, 19 HP ogres died in the first round against the party. AD&D combat became dangerous because of all the stuff that bypassed the combat mechanics like Save or Die effects, or things like Level Drain.

Otherwise? Meh, you could blast through AD&D monsters by the truck full because they were so wimpy. I do appreciate that latter era D&D actually makes combat dangerous, rather than being largely a footnote with the occasional completely random death thrown in.

Was your DM using enough enemies? Did they ever hit? Combat was dangerous in my games.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

personally, i think fireball is only 'iconic' of wizard because they've had it for so long what with there being a good long point in time where they were the only arcane caster around to have fireball, as well as the aspect of people saying it is because of not wanting their toys taken away from their preferred classes, conciously or not.

it's much more a sorcerer or warlock spell IMO.

i'd give fireball to an evoker or elemental themed wizard, but i wouldn't put it in the base class if we were remaking spell lists.

it's a vaguely similar situation to the 'emergency crossbow' a wizard with a crossbow doesn't actually make a ton of sense thematically but because it was a fixture of the game for so long people started thinking it did, so when casters got easy infinite cantrips there was a not insignificant portion of people who went 'but what about the wizard's crossbow they won't need one anymore'

Having had fireball for a long time, and having been the only one to have it for a good bit, is….part of why it’s iconic to the wizard.

It’s an iconic wizard spell.

 

[Hussar]

Was your DM using enough enemies? Did they ever hit? Combat was dangerous in my games.

Dunno. We played most of the modules in 1e - all the common ones anyway. Played for years and years. Combat was never particularly dangerous in 1e. It wasn't until 3e that combat (outside of save or die, which is a separate element) was actually dangerous after the first couple of levels.

Sure, you could make combat dangerous by piling on dozens of enemies. But, that's the point. It took a 3 or 4 to 1 advantage for the monsters to even begin challenging 1e PC's. Look at Keep on the Borderlands. There's encounters there with a couple of dozen orcs and that's a basic, not even really challenging encounter for a 1st level party. In 3e or later, that would be an instant TPK for a 3rd level party. Convert the encounters 1:1 and Keep on the Borderlands is meant for a 4th or 5th level party for 3e or later. Certainly not 1st. Same with pretty much all the AD&D modules.