D&D 5E extra attack and wildshape question.

[Sacrosanct]

Quick question. If you have a class ability that states "any time you take the attack action, you can gain an additional attack.", and if you're wild shaped into a creature, does that mean you gain an additional attack?

For example, let's say you're a 5th level barbarian and a 2nd level druid. You've wild shaped into a brown bear. Your unarmored defense and damage resistance class features carry over to bear form. Do you get 3 attacks, because technically your attack action is a claw and bite attack, and the extra attack of the barbarian is a class feature as well?

 

[Edwin Suijkerbuijk]

@ofthemagi A paladin/driud with extra attack is in a wild shape with multiattack> extra on primary only, or extra the whole sequence? [MENTION=4036]Jeremy[/MENTION]ECrawford Extra Attack works with the Attack action, not with any other action, including Multiattack.

 

[Edwin Suijkerbuijk]

@ofthemagi A paladin/driud with extra attack is in a wild shape with multiattack> extra on primary only, or extra the whole sequence?
[MENTION=4036]Jeremy[/MENTION]ECrawford Extra Attack works with the Attack action, not with any other action, including Multiattack.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

To add to what Edwin shared Jeremy Crawford having said to help ensure clarity, and example:

If you have Extra Attack and are wild shaped into a black bear, you have two choices for making multiple-attacks; 1) take an action to use the black bear's multiattack action to attack once with a bite, and once with claws, 2) take the Attack action, make two attacks, choosing one available attack method for each (such as attacking twice with the bear's claws).

 

[Sacrosanct]

OK, so if I'm understanding correctly, multi-attack is a sub-feature of the attack action. I.e., when you take the attack action, and if you have multi-attack, then that multi-attack falls under that single attack action. Jeremy seems to say that multi-attack is NOT an attack action, which doesn't make any sense to me. So it seems he's ruling that even if you have an extra attack class feature, it really doesn't give you any extra attacks if you happen to be wild shaped.

I think I'm going to houserule that one away. Not only because it doesn't make sense to consider 'multi-attack' not part of an attack action (you're attacking, right?), but also because in order to get that, you've had to multiclass, which means you're giving something up to utilize it. In the example I gave, yes you'd get one extra attack from the barbarian's extra attack class feature, but you're still a level 2 druid, not level 7 if you went full druid, which means you'd be able to wild shape into something bigger, and have those attacks count as magical as well. That's kind of the whole point of multi-classing--giving up power of a single class by adding other features from the other class. If you can't use the features of one of your class, that sort of defeats the point, IMO of course. in exchange for not being able to wildshape into a larger CR2 creature or having the ability to count your attacks as magical, you're gaining an extra attack.

 

[spectacle]

No, "Extra attack" is a subfeature of the Attack action. "Multiattack" is an entirely separate action. Both actions let you make certain attacks, but that's all the rules they share.

If you wildshape into a creature that doesn't have multiattack but just a single strong attack, such as a Giant Elk, then having Extra Attack will be a big power up.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Jeremy seems to say that multi-attack is NOT an attack action, which doesn't make any sense to me.

As spectacle points out, it's a different action all by itself.

Basically, crack open your rules and head to the "Actions in Combat" section where it lists out things like "Attack", "Cast a Spell", and "Dodge." Then pretend that between "Hide" and "Ready" there is an action called "Multiattack" that explains it is a special sort of action normally reserved for monsters and NPCs to facilitate attack routines like claw, claw, bite and representation of an NPC having advanced fighting ability without assigning or implying levels in any particular class and without creating an iterative attack system applied to all monsters and NPCs in general.

 

[Sacrosanct]

No, "Extra attack" is a subfeature of the Attack action. "Multiattack" is an entirely separate action. Both actions let you make certain attacks, but that's all the rules they share.

If you wildshape into a creature that doesn't have multiattack but just a single strong attack, such as a Giant Elk, then having Extra Attack will be a big power up.

Not really, which is what I was getting at. By the time you get extra attack, you have had to devote 5 levels into a different class. So you have to look at the entire context. You're not a giant elk getting two attacks with low level PCs. You'd have to be at least level 11 in order to do so (level 6 in druid because the elk is a cR2 creature, and level 5 in the other class). So is getting a ram attack and a hooves attack really that big of a power up when an equal level fighter gets 3 attacks, or the straight 11th level barbarian has all those additional features (brutal critical, etc), or the 11th level straight druid can go into CR3 creatures with higher level spells?

I don't think it's too powerful of a power up

 

[DEFCON 1]

Not really, which is what I was getting at. By the time you get extra attack, you have had to devote 5 levels into a different class. So you have to look at the entire context. You're not a giant elk getting two attacks with low level PCs. You'd have to be at least level 11 in order to do so (level 6 in druid because the elk is a cR2 creature, and level 5 in the other class). So is getting a ram attack and a hooves attack really that big of a power up when an equal level fighter gets 3 attacks, or the straight 11th level barbarian has all those additional features (brutal critical, etc), or the 11th level straight druid can go into CR3 creatures with higher level spells?

I don't think it's too powerful of a power up

Then go ahead and try it out. If it works okay for you, then bonus! If it turns out it's more powerful than you expected, you can call the mea culpa and tell the player you have to go back to the standard way of doing it.

 

[dmnqwk]

On the surface your idea seems okay, but consider if you took a Monk 5 Barbarian 4 Druid 2 combination instead. (or Barbarian 5 Monk 4 Druid 2)

By allowing Multi-attack to be taken as part of an attack action, it doesn't seem too much of a leap to suggest you can use a claw to perform an unarmed attack. By doing so we'd set up the potential situation of a Frenzying Bear who gets:

1. Attack, Extra Attack, 2 Flurry of Blows Attacks.
2. 2 possibilities for advantage (stunning strike or recklessness)
3. A damage capacity of 2d6+6 per claw strike and 1d8+6 per bite attack
4. Wisdom of 20 (possible by having barb 4 monk 4, hence why it's not Monk 2 or Barb 3 with a different split) allowing for an AC 15 in bearform
5. Damage resistance to everything but psychic damage.

This means you get 2d6+6 * 4 plus 1d8+6 * 2, or an average of 73. Now, some of you will rebuke this by saying how you cannot do claw damage as unarmed, but that would only hold up if we were playing the rules properly. The thread is suggesting it's okay to Multi-Attack as part of an Attack Action. If we strip the flurry of claws, we'd switch to frenzied berserker and get 3 attacks a round, putting us down to 2d6+6 * 3 plus 1d8+6 *3, or damage of 70.5.

Taking it further, how about creating the Dancing Bear? Barb 3 (Berserker) Bard 6 (College of Valor) Druid 2 (Circle of the Moon):

- Spell slots equal to an 8th level Caster (for self-healing)
- Inspiration as a Bear! (and thanks to Font of Inspiration refreshed on a short rest!)
- Damage potential of 70.5, an additional 6d4 once divine favour or Crusader's Mantle are available (through 10th level Bard)

Or how about the Many-attack Bear: Barb 1 Cleric 1 Druid 2 Fighter 6 Monk 1

With each Multi-attack under rage dealing 2d6+6 and 1d8+6, we're looking at a possibility of 2 Attacks per Action and 1 from Cleric's War Domain Bonus Action for a total of 5. On top of this Divine Favour grants us an additional 1d4 per attack:
So now our 11th level Bear can dish out 2d6+1d8+2d4+12 all multipled by 5, for an average of 142.5. And being primary Fighter allows this to increase by 47. And that's not even taking into account Battlemaster damage potential!

Oh and the level of Monk is so our AC can benefit from the 20 Wisdom still, giving us 15 in bear form (10 + 5 wisdom + 0 dex).

I understand why you feel comparing your choice to an 11th level fighter seems fine, but it's important to consider the entire situation and potential for abuse when substituting your own rules - if you still feel it's okay I say go for it!