Extra Spell = Any Spell List?

[amazingshafeman]

Doesn't one of the Light of X spells in Planar Handbook give the option of damaging ray or healing touch, too? I banned that spell for that reason.

 

[Elminster's Son]

Extra Spell
You Learn an additional spell.
Prerequisite: Caster Level 3rd
Benefit: You learn one additional spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast. Thus, a 4th level sorcerer (Maximum spell level 2nd) gains a new 0-level or 1st level spell known with which to expand her repetoire. For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you learn a new spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can cast.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That is the entirety of the feat as it's written in Complete Arcane Pg. 79-80.

Having read the entirety of this thread, I can see both for and against. But if one will allow a Wizard to take this as a means of getting spells on his banned list of spells, why can't someone like the Warmage take it to gain an illusion spell? Or a sorcerer gain a Cure Spell or any divine spell for that matter?

Also note for those of you with Lost Empires of Faerun, there is a THREE feat combo that allows you to regain access to a banned school of magic while still being a Specialist Wizard.

Ok, so a wizard gains a spell from his banned list. The rules on Specialist wizards still prohibit him from casting it! As for the Divine/Arcane line, bah! It's how the spell is gained. In my opinion it doesn't matter what the spell is. It's a spell and it's the class that makes it Arcane or Divine.

My personal opinion, I think that it shouldn't matter. An extra spell is an extra spell. If the player wants to burn up an irreplaceable feat to gain a spell of a level lower than what he can cast, I say let him. It just means he's not gonna be able to take a Metamagic or Item Creation feat. I'd much rather see a Warmage take Extra Spell to get Invisibility than take Maximize Spell or Energy Admixture (God! Nothing like watch a 20th level Wizard cast an Admixed fireball that does 10d6 of fire damage and 10d6 of electricity damage!)

It's all in your perspective. I think that ultimately it comes down to the Golden Rule of DMing. If you don't like it, ban it! BUT DO SO AT THE START OF THE CAMPAIGN!!!!

 

[Thia Halmades]

As I said, the Feat would be enough to allow a Prohibited Spell IMC. I disallow Arcane Disciple for the exact reason Hypersmurf mentions it; the first thing that sprang to mind when I read it was: "Hey, Sorcerers can take the Healing domain. Gee. That's f'n broken." Wizards /=/ Healers. But I draw a big, fat line between Arcane & Divine magic. That's me. Thanee has a perfectly valid point: the rules can be interpreted as the spells are removed from the Specialist's list, but that's semantics and I haven't seen anything in the SRD that says that exactly. No touchy? That it says. But not that the spell no longer exists on the list. Again, semantics, and her point is totally valid, but now we're getting out of SRD territory and into HR territory.

Crossing the Divine/Arcane barrier? Zephyrus, it's your campaign, dude. If your friend just wants an argument, hey, let him make it. But it seems from here that you're pretty clear on your interpretation of the rule. If you want to allow Arcane Disciple, instead of getting just one prohibited spell, he can get a whole DOMAIN of spells. (Yeah, 9 spells, from a Cleric Domain, for the price of one feat. I say it's grossly unbalanced, but that's me).

So if you're just looking for a way to keep your rules adhering to RAW and canon as much as possible, that's the best (and most immediate) option.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[Elminster's Son]

As I said, the Feat would be enough to allow a Prohibited Spell IMC. I disallow Arcane Disciple for the exact reason Hypersmurf mentions it; the first thing that sprang to mind when I read it was: "Hey, Sorcerers can take the Healing domain. Gee. That's f'n broken." Wizards /=/ Healers. But I draw a big, fat line between Arcane & Divine magic. That's me. Thanee has a perfectly valid point: the rules can be interpreted as the spells are removed from the Specialist's list, but that's semantics and I haven't seen anything in the SRD that says that exactly. No touchy? That it says. But not that the spell no longer exists on the list. Again, semantics, and her point is totally valid, but now we're getting out of SRD territory and into HR territory.

Crossing the Divine/Arcane barrier? Zephyrus, it's your campaign, dude. If your friend just wants an argument, hey, let him make it. But it seems from here that you're pretty clear on your interpretation of the rule. If you want to allow Arcane Disciple, instead of getting just one prohibited spell, he can get a whole DOMAIN of spells. (Yeah, 9 spells, from a Cleric Domain, for the price of one feat. I say it's grossly unbalanced, but that's me).

So if you're just looking for a way to keep your rules adhering to RAW and canon as much as possible, that's the best (and most immediate) option.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

As for the Arcane Disciple... It's not broken, because you still need the appropriate Wisdom modifier to cast the said spell. So if you've only got a WIS of 14 you're only gonna cast the 4th level spell from the domain AND you can only cast it ONCE a day per level. Whoopie! A sorcerer has the Healing Domain. He still has to have a Wis Score high enough to cast a spell on the list. And he can only cast each spell once per day!

 

[Storm Raven]

As I said, the Feat would be enough to allow a Prohibited Spell IMC. I disallow Arcane Disciple for the exact reason Hypersmurf mentions it; the first thing that sprang to mind when I read it was: "Hey, Sorcerers can take the Healing domain. Gee. That's f'n broken." Wizards /=/ Healers. But I draw a big, fat line between Arcane & Divine magic. That's me. Thanee has a perfectly valid point: the rules can be interpreted as the spells are removed from the Specialist's list, but that's semantics and I haven't seen anything in the SRD that says that exactly. No touchy? That it says. But not that the spell no longer exists on the list.

For what it is worth, the FAQ says that the spells of a prohibited school are treated as being removed from the wizard's class spell list.

 

[Borlon]

Except for the Arcane Disciple feat, of course.

-Hyp.

This feat really doesn't allow a wizard to treat a divine spell as an arcane one, though. You need an appropriately high wisdom, and can only use the spell 1/day, and so on. It also is highly specific in saying that yes, a wizard can cast a few divine spells.

If Extra Spell applied to cross-class lists, a high level (13+) wizard could treat heal as any of his other sixth level spells, with no hedging or qualification. And I think this would be such a radical departure from the design philosophy of D&D that it would not be allowed. And if it were an intended application, it would certainly be spelled out.

A wizard could also use limited wish to emulate a low level cleric spell, but this doesn't really constitute an erosion of the arcane/divine distinction; if anything, it illustrates it.

 

[Thia Halmades]

For what it is worth, the FAQ says that the spells of a prohibited school are treated as being removed from the wizard's class spell list.

That's worth its weight in GOLD, because it clarifies the distinction. If its removed from the class list, then there's no question - you can't do it. That was the point my whole argument hinged on, actually, they never spelled out in the SRD "Those spells are considered removed from the Wizards class list." I feel much better now.

So the answer is: RAW says no. Anything else then becomes an HR.

Hyp - sorry, didn't have the book in front of me, so I was unaware that it was only 1/day, which is why I was so bent on saying it was broken in the first place. I was aware of the WIS requirement, but I have a Sorc in my party with a 16 Wis as it is. You can see where in that situation I'd hesitate to hand that out.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[Thanee]

That's worth its weight in GOLD, because it clarifies the distinction.

Yep, tho it is kinda like stating the obvious.

Bye
Thanee

 

[IcyCool]

So the answer is: RAW says no. Anything else then becomes an HR.

Careful on that distinction. As far as I've seen, the RAW refers to the Rules As Written. The FAQ doesn't fall under that, and frequently contradicts itself. Although if your group considers the FAQ part of the RAW, you're all set.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Careful on that distinction. As far as I've seen, the RAW refers to the Rules As Written. The FAQ doesn't fall under that, and frequently contradicts itself.

Yeah. While I happen to agree in this instance, I give the FAQ very little weight, and certainly don't consider it RAW.