Extra Spell

[Felix]

That clause is explained in the PHB on page 179. "With the DM's permission" a sorcerer can research spells that aren't on the wizard/sorcerer list.

This PHB citation makes you think that a feat cannot allow the same thing only quicker?

The FAQ clarifies the WotC interpretation. Does anyone believe the FAQ contradicts the feat? Does anyone believe that the FAQ "got it wrong"? Is there anything in the RAW of the feat that contradicts the FAQ ruling, and if so what?

My first post, #89.
My second post, #96.
My third post, #101.

In each of these post I have labored to make clear that there is a difference between what the rules say as they are written, and what the FAQ has to say about the matter. Several times I have explicitly said that the FAQ is not wrong, so if you are sensitive about people attacking the FAQ, please be mollified. I have even gone so far as to say that the FAQ does not necessarily contradict the wording of the rules.

But please put the FAQ aside for a moment. Try to see what the rules say first, and then apply the FAQ. It is possible, as I laid out in post #161 for the feat to allow a spell from outside the class spell list, and for a sorcerer to cast it. The FAQ disagrees.

Does this mean the FAQ is wrong? If the purpose of the FAQ were to clarify intent, and if it has been faithful to the intent of the feat in this case, then no, it is not wrong. If the purpose of the FAQ is to make clear precicely what the feat says with no particular weight attached to writer's intent, then there is a good argument that the FAQ is indeed wrong.

But that is neither here nor there because I have already said myself that the FAQ is reasonable. You can re-read it if you like.

Also, please note that the duskblade does not say "primarily", it says spells are drawn from the list. No "primarily". In this case, can those who are arguing about the sorcerer at least agree that, for the duskblade, there is very little reason to interpret this feat as a legitimate method of acquiring non-duskblade spells?

There are two questions to be asked. 1) Can the Duskblade aquire the spell? 2) Can the Duskblade cast the spell?

• Can the Duskblade aquire the spell?

The feat Extra Spell states that the PC "learns one additional spell", and there are no restrictions on what that spell is with the exception of the level of the spell. Feats also alter the way base class mechanics work, so there is precident for a feat to overrule other rules. So, yes, there is a good argument that the Duskblade can indeed aquire it, as written.

• Can the Duskblade cast the spell?

Spells: You cast arcane spells, which are drawn from the Duskblade spell list on page 98. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time.

There is ground for both arguments in the Duskblade description. Half says, "you cast ... spells drawn from the DB spell list", which can indeed be exclusive. The other half says, "you can cast any spell you know", and if you allow that feats can add options to a character's mechancis, then you may allow that a feat is able to circumvent the normal method of gaining Spells Known, and that will allow the Duskblade to learn and cast a spell outside of the DB spell list.

Why do you make this assumption?

It is an observation, not an assumption. I'll let you know when I start assuming something, like how I'm assuming that we're examing the text of the rules throughly before we apply the FAQ.

What words, specifically, from the feat say that you can choose any spell?

Specifically?

"You learn one additional spell."

Those words. Sift them how you like you'll not find within them one ounce of restriction. Please tell me what words, specifically, in the feat say, "must be from within the class' spell list".

IMO, if there are restrictions on a class then a feat cannot override these restrictions unless the feat specifically mentions it.

The degree of specificity can be argued about; if everything were laid out explicitly the PHB would be 1700 pages long, if not issued in volumes. The PHB is rife with implication if you look for it, and there is no reason not to allow the same for this feat.

---

And I figure I should state again, because what could it hurt, that I'm not arguing what the rules should be or how I would rule them in my own game: I'm arguing the meaning of what the rules are. The meaning of what the words acutally say. Simply becasue I argue that the Duskblade has a basis for wanting a non-class spell list spell does not mean I think he should, or that I would give it to him. I'm simply presenting the argument.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Below is the current answer that I have received. Unfortunately they have missed what I asked and have added further clarification. Regardless of what Takasi says, even if wraithstrike is beyond getting, therre are plenty of other spells to get. Stoneskin for one.

Subject
FAQ Submission

Discussion Thread
Response (Sam S.) 01/01/2007 10:42 PM
Hi there James,

The FAQ ruling is correct. Extra Spell can also be used as a tool by the DM who wants to limit the spells characters get access to. The DM could limit spells to only be chosen from certain books, and a spell found outside those books might be available if the caster was willing to spend a feat (Extra Spell) to learn it.

A DM is of course free to rule, house rule, or alter the feat as they wish.


Take Care and Good Gaming!

 

[Felix]

Regardless of what Takasi says, even if wraithstrike is beyond getting, therre are plenty of other spells to get.

If takasi is willing to apply a restriction on the spell chosen limiting it to the class' spell list, what prevents him from applying other restrictions? Nothing actually. He can disallow the feat. He can disallow the whole class. If he's the DM, he can disallow you.

My point being that takasi saying so does change the meaning of the words as they are written, merely how they are applied in his game.

The FAQ ruling is correct.

Ex cathedra, and just as trustworthy. It's not an argument, it's not thought, it's an answer. "Why?" would be a nice question to ask him, though I doubt he'd answer with anything more meaningful than, "Because".

 

[wildstarsreach]

Why? There are easily 10 times as many spells as there are psionic powers. Even with adding all psionic classes together, you won't have the same number a Wizard can already choose from.

Why is this an argument for how Extra Spell has to work? It's based on an entirely different magic system.



Why not? It's as good an example as any other. The feat does not allow to cross class list boundaries, no matter what percentage of your class list you happen to know.

Bye
Thanee

I know that not all feats are create equally. But when feats are similar in requirements, then they should be made the same in relative power.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Fighters can already use any weapon.

Wizards cannot cast all spells.

Apples and Oranges yet again.

It's not apples and oranges. A wizard casts spells. That is his arsenal. A fighter uses weapons. That is his arsenal. The analogy is valid.

 

[Thanee]

I know that not all feats are create equally. But when feats are similar in requirements, then they should be made the same in relative power.

Maybe they are? Maybe it is seen relative in power (just to be sure, you are speaking of Expanded Knowledge here, right?), that a Psion can learn from all classes and a Wizard cannot, considering how many more spells there are.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

It's not apples and oranges. A wizard casts spells. That is his arsenal. A fighter uses weapons. That is his arsenal. The analogy is valid.

Yeah, it is valid, but it's done wrong.

Spells from other classes - no analogy; maybe too large weapons (cannot be used at all)
Class Spell List - All Weapons (can be used within limits; only via scroll/wand, or with penalty)
Learned Spells - Proficient Weapons (can be used normally)
Extra Spell - (Exotic) Weapon Proficiency (adds one to the learned/proficient spells/weapons)

Bye
Thanee

 

[wildstarsreach]

Further answers from customer service.

Discussion Thread
Response (Sam S.) 01/01/2007 11:10 PM
Hi there James,

Extra Spell applies for all classes. Casters are limited to spells that are on their spell list. It would allow a Sorcerer from a remote arctic land to choose a spell like Firebrand from the Spell Compendium or Stars of Arvandor from the Book of Exalted Deeds, even if the Sorcerer would not normally know anything regarding those spells in the campaign. Remember that not all campaigns allow all spells from all resources that have been printed for the D&D game.


Take Care and Good Gaming!

I'm going to have to clarify further but I see where they are going.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Can a duskblade channel divine spells with arcane
channeling? What about arcane spells gained from other
classes?
Yes and yes.

The above is from page 11 of the FAQ. This then sheds some potential new light on how this feat may work with regards to the Duskblade. Not sure. What do you guys think?

 

[Hypersmurf]

This then sheds some potential new light on how this feat may work with regards to the Duskblade.

No; it's referring to a multiclassed Duskblade.

In other words, "Can a Duskblade/Cleric channel an Inflict Light Wounds he casts as a Cleric spell, or can he only channel his Duskblade spells?"

-Hyp.