Extra Spell

[Thanee]

There is a direct analogy between a class' spell list and a class' list of proficient weapons, and both lists expand in virtually every new book. Each is a list of tools for the class described.

A fighter (well, even a commoner) can pick up *any* weapon (apart from size issues) and use it. How is that similar?

I don't see a contradiction here. A spell "learned" has been deciphered and transcribed into the wizard's spellbook, and such a spell is memorizable and castable as long as the wizard is of sufficient level.

Where does it say, that you can cast it?

If a wizard could only cast spells from the extant sorc/wiz list (how many ever books you're using to define it), then independent research would be impossible- such a spell would- by definition- not be on the class list.

That's why there are some effects that actually modify the class spell list (like... when you create a new spell).

If you want to read the game text of a feat, that works in this fashion, check out Arcane Disciple in Complete Divine (it's one of the very few instances, where this happens; Expanded Knowledge is another, obviously, but does not apply to spellcasters, so it's not such a great comparison).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Felix]

Yeah, but then one is back at the point that the feat does what it says it does, and it certainly does not say anything about modifying the class spell list, while other, similar feats do this. Therefore it is safe to assume, that it is not supposed to (IMHO, anyways).

Bye
Thanee

It doesn't have to modify the class spell list. If you can only cast spells you can learn, and those spells are drawn from the class spell list, then a feat that allows you to learn a spell will allow you to cast that spell and leave your class spell list unmolested.

This is different from only being able to cast spells from your class spell list. In which case all the "learning" in the world won't allow you to cast a spell that isn't on you class list. Unless the feat is worded to specifically allow that.

The question then becomes if the rule is "can only cast spells you can learn" or "cast spells from your class spell list". Your Option 1 only allows for the second interpretation, and Option 2, while it does not wholly endorse the first, neither does it rule it out.

 

[Thanee]

If you can only cast spells you can learn, ...

That, however, is not the rule. It's a result of the rule.

You can only cast spells that appear on your class spell list (PHB rule).
You can, also, only learn spells that appear on your class spell list (implied rule; Option 2) above).

...then a feat that allows you to learn a spell will...

...have to follow those rules, unless specifically stated otherwise.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

A fighter is proficient with simple and martial weapons, not with exotic ones. The Feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency adds one Exotic weapon to a particular fighter's list of proficient weapons, despite that weapon's absence from the class' base list of weapons. The Feat alters the default rule of a PC's weapon proficiencies.

Similarly, Extra Spell adds one spell to a spellcaster's known spells- he can cast it.

Fighters can already use any weapon.

Wizards cannot cast all spells.

Apples and Oranges yet again.

 

[Felix]

You can only cast spells that appear on your class spell list (PHB rule).

As I've said before, it depends upon how you read the PHB.

In either case, that would be the argument for allowing CLW into a Wizard's casting repitoire, and between Option 1 and 2, the argument is stronger assuming Option 2.

Not that this is how I would rule it, that's just how I would argue it.

Fighters can already use any weapon.

Wizards cannot cast all spells.

Apples and Oranges yet again.

Though the example was poor, the principle is sound.

Whirlwind Attack as a maneuver is not possible without the feat; the rules do not allow it. Neither do the rules allow for Wizards to cast CLW. It is possible to argue that Extra Spell alters the casting rules in the same way that Whirlwind Attack permits a change in the combat options of a fighter.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Fighters can already use any weapon.

Wizards cannot cast all spells.

I'm not too concerned- I offered an analogy, and no analogy is perfect.

If you'll look again, I didn't discuss weapon use (after all, any PC can already use any weapon), I discussed weapon proficiency.

Where does it say, that you can cast it?

Pages 178-179 tell you that a Wizard must have his spellbooks to prepare spells for casting.

The portion I quoted before describes the default method of transcribing spells into a wizard's spellbook

Again:

"A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizards' spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing...Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check...If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook...A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one."

(emphasis mine)

Between Magic Scrolls and Independent Research, there is no arcane spell outside of a Wizard's reach. With enough time and research, he can add at least some version of any arcane spell to his spellbook.

The only limitation in those pages is "If a wizard has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, she can learn spells only from schools whose spells she can cast."

If its in his spellbook, he can cast it (assuming he is of sufficient level).

If you read the section on p56 narrowly: "A wizard casts arcane spells...which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list..." then the section of the PHB dealing with Independent Research (bolded, above) is essentially meaningless.

If, instead, the designers really meant what they wrote in the Independent Research text, giving it full effect means Wizards can clearly cast spells not on the Sorc/Wiz list, if they invest money and take time to research duplicating extant spells from other classes or innovating spells of their own.

The only part of this that the (non-FAQ version of) Extra Spell changes is the need for research and money.

 

[Glyfair]

And as already stated numerous times, it doesn't matter at all, if Extra Spell would allow you to learn spells from other classes, since it wouldn't allow you to cast them, so that exercise is pointless either way, without adding new rules to the feat description. That's not a matter of interpretation.

I find it interesting that the most vehement defenders of Extra Spell allowing you to add spells outside of your spell list simultaneously argue for strict literal interpretation ("the feat doesn't limit the spell you can learn, so you can learn any spell") and against a strict literal interpretation ("well, it would be silly to learn a spell that you can't cast, so of course the feat overrules the limitation on only casting spells on the sorcerer list").

IMO, functionally the correct answer to this question is ask your DM how he is ruling on the issue before you assume either way. My answer is clearly that you cannot add a spell not on your class list.

(BTW, does anyone know how the RPGA games rule on this? That's one occasion where the table DM doesn't have carte blanch on this sort of issue.)

 

[Felix]

I find it interesting that the most vehement defenders of Extra Spell allowing you to add spells outside of your spell list simultaneously argue for strict literal interpretation ("the feat doesn't limit the spell you can learn, so you can learn any spell") and against a strict literal interpretation ("well, it would be silly to learn a spell that you can't cast, so of course the feat overrules the limitation on only casting spells on the sorcerer list").

Here's why:

The Sorcerer entry clearly allows that his spells known primarily come from the Sor/Wiz spell list, he can use any spell slot of proper level to cast any of his spells known, and Extra Spell introduces another Spell Known. The result being a Sorcerer who can cast Cure Light Wounds.

The difficult question comes when you apply the wording from the Wizard's description, and this is what the past two pages have been about. It is not clear that Extra Spell allows a wizard to learn, memorize, and cast any spell, but nor is it clear that this is prohibited, especially in the light that the sorcerer can do this, as written, of course.

IMO, functionally the correct answer to this question is ask your DM how he is ruling on the issue before you assume either way.

The same is true about ability score generation, HP rolling, adjudication of skill checks, and a whole host of other clearly described game mechanics. This is no solution.

My answer is clearly that you cannot add the spell to your list.

To which list are you referring? The class spell list? The Spells Known list? The spells contained in your spellbook list?

Why this is so clear to you?

(BTW, does anyone know how the RPGA games rule on this? That's one occasion where the table DM doesn't have carte blanch on this sort of issue.)

I believe that it is the general rule that the RPGA games adhere to FAQ rulings in the case of a dispute. For what it's worth.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I find it interesting that the most vehement defenders of Extra Spell allowing you to add spells outside of your spell list simultaneously argue for strict literal interpretation ("the feat doesn't limit the spell you can learn, so you can learn any spell") and against a strict literal interpretation ("well, it would be silly to learn a spell that you can't cast, so of course the feat overrules the limitation on only casting spells on the sorcerer list").

???

I think by now it should be clear that I am definitely of the opinion that:

1) the feat doesn't limit the spell you can learn, so you can learn any spell (my only hangup might be crossing the arcane/divine divide).

and

2) It is silly to learn a spell you can't cast. Normally, classes are limited to casting from only their own spell list. Extra Spell does get around this, just like Expanded Knowledge gets around similar strictures in the psionic system.

but also as is clear from p179:

3) The limitation of only casting spells on the sorcerer/wizard list is not absolute, at least for Wizards.*

* While p 179 says that "A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way," there are also WotC & Paizo Feats that add spells to the known spell lists of spontaneous casters, some specifically for sorcerers only. Clearly, some Feats are a way around the limitations of particular classes.

 

[Glyfair]

To which list are you referring? The class spell list? The Spells Known list? The spells contained in your spellbook list?

Fixed.

My answer is clearly that you cannot add a spell not on your class list.