Extra Spell

[Thanee]

Felix, sorry for the lil confusion, but I'm not speaking of the feat there...

I mean a starting 1st-level Wizard's normal starting spells. But you answered that already.

What I'm aiming for is this... since a Wizard cannot cast these spells (and that's a fact), even though there is nothing really preventing the Wizard from learning them, isn't it reasonable to assume, that they actually cannot even learn them in the first place?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Felix]

Felix, sorry for the lil confusion, but I'm not speaking of the feat there...

I mean a starting 1st-level Wizard's normal starting spells. But you answered that already.

Bye
Thanee

Ah. Then the discussion would rebound back to this:

It depends upon how you read these entries in the Wizard description:

• Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list.

• Spellbooks: ... At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook.

It is not clear that the "Spellbook" entry restricts Wizards from adding any spell of any spell list into their spellbook, but the "Spells" entry can be read as restricting the Wizard to only casting Sor/Wiz spells. So even if the Wizard could add Cure Light Wounds to their spellbook, that does not mean that said wizard could necessarily cast that spell. Nor is it clear that the Wizard couldn't prepare Cure Light Wounds, but his ability to actually cast the spell is not guaranteed.

So they wizard may be able to add Cure Light Wounds to their spellbook, but if the "Spells" description is read as restricting the wizard to only casting Sor/Wiz spells, then why would the wizard want to?

EDIT:

(and darn you for editing while I was replying! )

What I'm aiming for is this... since a Wizard cannot cast these spells (and that's a fact), even though there is nothing really preventing the Wizard from learning them, isn't it reasonable to assume, that they actually cannot even learn them in the first place?

It is certainly a reasonable assumption, but not one explicitly stated by the language of the Wizard description.

 

[Thanee]

Exactly. It's pointless.

There are two options at this point.

1) It is allowed. And pointless.

2) Or it is not allowed, and the rules assume, that you transfer this knowledge from the spellcasting restriction to the learning of spells.

I strongly believe, that 2) is the intention (well, it's kinda obvious really).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Let's try with the Bard... so the Bard learns Extra Spell to learn Magic Missile and now wants to cast the spell.

There are two rules...

He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time.

Check. He knows this spell now, so he can probably cast it.

A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list.

Oh, wait, he can only cast spells from the bard spell list. Magic Missile isn't on that list.

So he cannot cast it, after all.

A fighter is proficient with simple and martial weapons, not with exotic ones. The Feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency adds one Exotic weapon to a particular fighter's list of proficient weapons, despite that weapon's absence from the class' base list of weapons. The Feat alters the default rule of a PC's weapon proficiencies.

Similarly, Extra Spell adds one spell to a spellcaster's known spells- he can cast it.

 

[Thanee]

There is no such thing as the class spell list for spells for the fighter's potential weapons 'known'.

Similarly, Extra Spell adds one spell to a spellcaster's known spells- he can cast it.

That's an assumption you make, that is not only not supported by the rules, it's actually outright contradicted.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Felix]

Exactly. It's pointless.

There are two options at this point.

1) It is allowed. And pointless.

2) Or it is not allowed, and the rules assume, that you transfer this knowledge from the spellcasting restriction to the learning of spells.

I strongly believe, that 2) is the intention (well, it's kinda obvious really).

Bye
Thanee

Which opens an interesting line of argument. If the wizard cannot cast a spell outside the Sor/Wiz list because he cannot learn the spell (this would be your option 2), and the feat Extra Spell allows the wizard to learn any spell, would it not be reasonable to say that because he now has learned the spell he can now cast it?

In option 1, it is not the inability to learn spells from outside the Sor/Wiz list that prevents the wizard from casting them, merely that he "Casts spells from the Sor/Wiz list", which is the description in the "Spells" entry. So even if the feat allowed the Wizard to learn the spell and put it in his spellbook, this does not necessarily mean that the wizard can cast it.

Under Option 2, the argument allowing a wizard to cast Cure Light Wounds gained through Extra Spell is stronger than if the rule is Option 1.

 

[Thanee]

Which opens an interesting line of argument. If the wizard cannot cast a spell outside the Sor/Wiz list because he cannot learn the spell (this would be your option 2), and the feat Extra Spell allows the wizard to learn any spell, would it not be reasonable to say that because he now has learned the spell he can now cast it?

Because he can't. That's a rule. There is no interpretation here.

It's the same with what I have said above (with spells learned during character creation or level-up). It also doesn't restrict the learning of these spells there, much like Extra Spell does not (explicitly, that is).

The reasoning here is, that since you cannot cast them, you cannot even learn them. And this transfers to every instance where you learn spells (unless they are also added to the class spell list, like in the case of Arcane Disciple, for example; altho it holds true there, too, since the spell is then on the class spell list, of course).

In option 1, it is not the inability to learn spells from outside the Sor/Wiz list that prevents the wizard from casting them, merely that he "Casts spells from the Sor/Wiz list", which is the description in the "Spells" entry. So even if the feat allowed the Wizard to learn the spell and put it in his spellbook, this does not necessarily mean that the wizard can cast it.

Correct.

Under Option 2, the argument allowing a wizard to cast Cure Light Wounds gained through Extra Spell is stronger than if the rule is Option 1.

Under my Option 2 it's actually not allowed to learn spells that are not on the class spell list. Extra Spell lets you learn a spell, hence it must be from the class spell list.

That's what I'm getting at here. It's either pointless or not allowed.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There is no such thing as the class spell list for spells for the fighter's potential weapons 'known'.

There is a direct analogy between a class' spell list and a class' list of proficient weapons, and both lists expand in virtually every new book. Each is a list of tools for the class described.

Some classes lists are defined by "Simple/Martial/Exotic" proficiency, while others have ennumerated lists of proficient weapons- an analogy conceptually no different from full casters and classes like Bards or Rangers with limited spell lists.

Similarly, Extra Spell adds one spell to a spellcaster's known spells- he can cast it.

That's an assumption you make, that is not only not supported by the rules, it's actually outright contradicted.

Extra Spell's text starts off with:

"You learn one additonal spell at any level up to one lower thatn the highest level of spell you can currently cast."

According to p.179 of the PHB:

"A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizards' spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing...Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check...If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook...A wizard can also research a spell independcntly, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one."

I don't see a contradiction here. A spell "learned" has been deciphered and transcribed into the wizard's spellbook, and such a spell is memorizable and castable as long as the wizard is of sufficient level.

Theoretically, a Wizard could transfer any arcane spell transferred to scroll or book into his own, regardless of class lists, given sufficient time and research money.

Extra Spell just cuts through the game mechanics of learning by having the PC burn a feat.

If a wizard could only cast spells from the extant sorc/wiz list (how many ever books you're using to define it), then independent research would be impossible- such a spell would- by definition- not be on the class list.

 

[Felix]

Under Option 2, the argument allowing a wizard to cast Cure Light Wounds gained through Extra Spell is stronger than if the rule is Option 1.

Under my Option 2 it's actually not allowed to learn spells that are not on the class spell list. Extra Spell lets you learn a spell, hence it must be from the class spell list.

That's what I'm getting at here. It's either pointless or not allowed.

Bye
Thanee

Emphasis Added

The argument would be that while it is the case that you can't normally learn spells outside of the class spell list, Extra Spell does allow this. And because you have a feat that allows you to do what you normally can't do (like most feats function), the normal rules don't apply when concerning the particular spell that you chose through Extra Spell.

EDIT

But as I said, the argument is not ironclad, simply a stronger argument than if the Rule is Option #1 that allows scribing (read: learning) any spell you like, but disallows the casting of any but Sor/Wiz spells.

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, but then one is back at the point that the feat does what it says it does, and it certainly does not say anything about modifying the class spell list, while other, similar feats do this. Therefore it is safe to assume, that it is not supposed to (IMHO, anyways).

You learn a spell, thus you have to follow the rules for learning spells, unless specifically stated otherwise. If the rules say that you can only learn spells from your class spell list (as in Option 2)), then that's what you get.

Bye
Thanee