Extra Spell

[Felix]

But can you cast the spells learned this way, if they are not on the class list?
There's a definite rule about what spells can be cast... and those not on the class spell list cannot.
Since the feat definitely does not add spells to the class spell list, it would be pointless to learn spells from other classes, even if it was possible with the feat.

Quite right. The rule for what spells a sorcerer can cast is found in the Sorcerer: Spells entry. To wit:

Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

It not only allows the possibility that spells can be drawn from sources other than the Sor/Wiz spell list, but ties his ability to cast a spell to his pool of Spells Known. The feat clearly adds a spell to that list, and so the sorcerer's ability to cast that spell is unfettered.

Also, do you think a Wizard can start the game with Cure Light Wounds written in the spellbook?

Bye
Thanee

Not if he's a first level Wizard; he would only be able to choose a cantrip; but he already knows all of those. And in what you quoted of me I wasn't passing judgement on how well the feat would work, merely commenting on what the wording of the feat meant.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It not only allows the possibility that spells can be drawn from sources other than the Sor/Wiz spell list, but ties his ability to cast a spell to his pool of Spells Known. The feat clearly adds a spell to that list, and so the sorcerer's ability to cast that spell is unfettered.

The Sorcerer can already draw from more than one list- they may draw from the Sorc/Wiz list or from the Wu Jen list (as per OA, not changed in the 3.5 update in Dragon).

One says so explicitly, so it works, the other is silent upon it, so it does not work.

and

Your opinion here does not follow RAW, nor is it very logical.

1) As people have pointed out in other threads, the Eratta list changes the RAW, not the FAQ (not that I neccessarily buy that). The RAW of Extra Spell is silent to this matter, meaning it is open to interpretation- not that it is non-functional.

2) It is quite logical- I'm adjudicating 2 nearly identically worded Feats in the same fashion.

Last time I checked, Collegiate Wizard did not work for Sorcerers at all...

I said as much earlier:

Collegiate Wizard is essentially a cousin of Extra Spell, one directed solely at wizards according to its prereqs. It doubles a wizard's spells known, but the spells can only come from the sorc/wiz list.

And as already stated numerous times, it doesn't matter at all, if Extra Spell would allow you to learn spells from other classes, since it wouldn't allow you to cast them, so that exercise is pointless either way

And yet the analogous class ability for the Warmage adds spells to their list and lets them cast it as well.

For Extra Spell to function as I (and others) rule it to, no rules need be added. The exercise isn't pointless.

Extra spell lets the caster add a spell to the caster's list of known spells. If you know a spell, you can cast it.

 

[Thanee]

So you are saying that two essentially identical feats function entirely differently because one includes a special clause while the other just doesn't say?

They are not even close to being identical. They might be equivalent, but they are based on entirely different foundations (magic (which includes two systems already, arcane and divine) and psionics).

And... yes.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Quite right. The rule for what spells a sorcerer can cast is found in the Sorcerer: Spells entry. ...

We're talking about Wizards, though.

Sorcerers are more tricky, thanks to a certain 'primarily' in their class writeup.
It becomes a matter of common sense for them.

Not if he's a first level Wizard

Why not?

Can you give me a solid reason, why a Wizard cannot start the game with Cure Light Wounds as one of his/her 1st-level spells?

And as a follow-up... when the Wizard becomes a 2nd-level Wizard, can s/he then add Cure Light Wounds to the spellbook (if it's not in there already, anyways) as part of the level-up process?

And in what you quoted of me I wasn't passing judgement on how well the feat would work, merely commenting on what the wording of the feat meant.

Ok.

Bye
Thanee

 

[wildstarsreach]

I believe that the decision that the FAQ made for the feat Extra Spell maybe incorrect. I think that my premises make my argument valid as this is a conservative decision that that does not apply to standard spontaneous casters.

This feat has the most affect on a spontaneous caster. This argument is not for the wizard as this is not who this seems designed for. On page 18 of the FAQ, the answer is no and I believe that this is because of two things, he has access to all Warmage spells of the level he can cast and he already has the advanced learning special ability. This has been interpreted that since the Warmage cannot benefit, that all other spontaneous casters have the same limitation. I think that this is a misinterpretation on most peoples part.

The part that address’s wizards leaves some to make the possible argument that this may allow spells that may be allowed only to another class. ” For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.” This is almost a waste of a feat since the Collegiate Wizard feat that a wizard could taken at 1st level on Page 181 of the Complete Arcane.

Now, unlike the Expanded Knowledge (Psionic), which does allow Psionic character to take one additional power of one level than he can manifest from any list, even restricted unknown lists. This feat does not explicitely state.

Extra spell is most like Expanded Knowledge Psionics and should have a clarification towards that. Psions and other Psionic classes have limited number of powers and effects like sorcerers and most other spontaneous casters. Most classes that spontaneously cast learn just a few spells per level. A Warmage has access to his entire list so this class should not be the example in which the clarification of this feat is the rule.

Can the Warmage (Complete Arcane) benefit from the Extra Spell feat?
No. Extra Spell lets you add one spell to your list of spells known, but the spell must be taken from your class spell list. Since the Warmage already knows all the spells on his class spell list, this feat has no effect.

 

[Thanee]

I said as much earlier: ...

Yeah. What I meant with that is, that the comparison between Extra Spell and Collegiate Wizard does not work to discern how Extra Spell might work, since it might very well do nothing for Wizards... and still work as intended, since it is designed for Sorcerers (primarily).

And yet the analogous class ability for the Warmage adds spells to their list and lets them cast it as well.

It also says so, quite explicitly. I tend to read rules in a way, that they do what they say.

For Extra Spell to function as I (and others) rule it to, no rules need be added. The exercise isn't pointless.

This is wrong. There is a rule, that prevents Wizards from casting spells not on their class spell list. Extra Spell does nothing with that list.

Extra spell lets the caster add a spell to the caster's list of known spells.

Yep, that's synonymous with learning a new spell.

If you know a spell, you can cast it.

This is not generally true.

If you allow the learning of spells outside of one's class spell list, these cannot be cast from most classes. Sorcerers might be the only exception there, but I would rather think they work like all the other classes in this context.


Let's try with the Bard... so the Bard learns Extra Spell to learn Magic Missile and now wants to cast the spell.

There are two rules...

He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time.

Check. He knows this spell now, so he can probably cast it.

A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list.

Oh, wait, he can only cast spells from the bard spell list. Magic Missile isn't on that list.

So he cannot cast it, after all.

Both these rules have to be fulfilled in order for this to work!


And for Extra Spell to work as you say for Wizards, the following rule must be broken...

A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

Hence, it does not work that way.


There is one word in the Sorcerer class write-up, which gives a little backdoor for Sorcerers to actually use this...

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

Because of this word, which only appears in the Sorcerer class write-up, I cannot tell you, that it does not work for them.

But I'm reasonably sure, that it is not intended for them to be able to learn non-Sor/Wiz spells.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Extra spell is most like Expanded Knowledge Psionics and should have a clarification towards that.

Why? There are easily 10 times as many spells as there are psionic powers. Even with adding all psionic classes together, you won't have the same number a Wizard can already choose from.

Why is this an argument for how Extra Spell has to work? It's based on an entirely different magic system.

A Warmage has access to his entire list so this class should not be the example in which the clarification of this feat is the rule.

Why not? It's as good an example as any other. The feat does not allow to cross class list boundaries, no matter what percentage of your class list you happen to know.

Bye
Thanee

 

[takasi]

Can the Warmage (Complete Arcane) benefit from the Extra Spell feat? No. Extra Spell lets you add one spell to your list of spells known, but the spell must be taken from your class spell list. Since the Warmage already knows all the spells on his class spell list, this feat has no effect.

Here's a question for everyone to answer please.

See the statement I quoted above about the Warmage and Extra Spell.

Do you think the statement after "No." ONLY applies to the Warmage?

A player is asking WotC for a FAQ clarification on this. I just want to know, based on a reasonable reading of this statement, or any FAQ statement, would this apply only to the class referred to? Or is it a blanket statement that applies to all classes?

(Yes, he's still trying to get our DM to give his duskblade wraithstrike by RAW. )

 

[Thanee]

Extra Spell lets you add one spell to your list of spells known, but the spell must be taken from your class spell list.

That's quite a blanket statement.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Felix]

We're talking about Wizards, though.

...

Can you give me a solid reason, why a Wizard cannot start the game with Cure Light Wounds as one of his/her 1st-level spells?

As far as the feat is concerned, the Wizard cannot gain Cure Light Wounds through that feat because it is a first level spell, and the feat allows only a spell of one level lower than the character can cast, which in this case would be a cantrip. The argument changes if the Wizard wants to take Cure Minor Wounds, which by the wording of the feat the Wizard would be able to select.

And as a follow-up... when the Wizard becomes a 2nd-level Wizard, can s/he then add Cure Light Wounds to the spellbook (if it's not in there already, anyways) as part of the level-up process?

It depends upon how you read these entries in the Wizard description:

• Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list.

• Spellbooks: ... At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook.

It is not clear that the "Spellbook" entry restricts Wizards from adding any spell of any spell list into their spellbook, but the "Spells" entry can be read as restricting the Wizard to only casting Sor/Wiz spells. So even if the Wizard could add Cure Light Wounds to their spellbook, that does not mean that said wizard could necessarily cast that spell. Nor is it clear that the Wizard couldn't prepare Cure Light Wounds, but his ability to actually cast the spell is not guaranteed.