wildstarsreach
First Post
Felix said:
I agree, for sorcerers, this is invaluable with having access to a large list.
Extra Spell
- Thread starter takasi
- Start date
I agree, for sorcerers, this is invaluable with having access to a large list.
Extra Spell says "You learn one additional spell"- in the arcane system- at least in the wizard class- that is the analogous language to "add to your powers known" in the psionics system.
The caster/manifester prereqs are identical- 3rd.
The mechanics- adding a power/spell 1 level lower than the PC's max- are identical.
Both can be taken multiple times.
The only difference is that one says explicitly what the other is silent upon- the size and nature of the pool of spells/powers that may be "targeted" by the Feat, "clarified" by the FAQ.*
Show me 2 other feats so similarly drafted that are adjudicated so differently.
*For those who don't know me, I'm not one of the people who dismisses the FAQ out of hand- I take a "wholeistic" approach, considering RAW, FAQ, Eratta, CustServ and my own opinion. Here, I think the FAQ erred.
ElectricDragon
Explorer
Rhun said:
Here is one such example from the dread necromancer class from Heroes of Horror:
Heroes of Horror said:
How specific is this ability compared to the feat?
Ciao
Dave
Dannyalcatraz said:
This is not correct. Expanded Knowledge says you "add a power" (easily interpreted to mean add to your list). Extra spell says you "learn a spell." This is different because you can only cast a spell if it is on your class list, if it has not been added on your class list you cannot cast it, though of course you can learn a spell on your class list. Semantics perhaps, but added to everything else, it has weight.
Dannyalcatraz said:
If it wasn't 2:30 a.m I just may look through all my books, but I have stuff to prepare for tomorrow; interesting challenge though and I may have to look. Still, I do not consider it dispositive because Expanded knowledge has the wording and Extra spell does not. The FAQ had the opportunity to say the language applies, instead it explicitely stated class-list only (in other words that the language present in expanded knowledge was not meant to be added).
One other thing: as close as they are, psionics and and magic are two different systems. In psionics there is no duplication between disciplines. No such thing as 8th level on one list and 5th level on another - so there is no confusion when going off list and a psion cannot get a power early. The same cannot be said for the magic lists. A spell may be 8th level on one list and 5th level on another. For example, with this interpretation a wizard can get polar ray 3 levels early (take extra spell at 12th level and take polar ray off the duskblade spell list as a 5th level spell).
ElectricDragon said:
Yet another example where the class ability allows going off list, but with severe limitations (this is consistant, warmage = evocation specialist, so evocation only, beguiler = illusion specialist so illusion only, and dread necromancer - see above). Why should a regular feat be better than the class ability? And yes,I note how specific they were here. Wording for the warmage is equally specific re: going off list. Yet for extra spell (from the same book as the warmage) the language is not added.
wow (3:00 a.m. my wife will kill me) good night.
Actually, each class has limitations on how many powers a PC can know at a given level, just like spellcasters- but for the relevant feat, you can only normally "add a power" that is on your own class' list and can't use it unless it is on your class list. For psions, this list would mean their subspecialty or the general psion/wilder list, for wilders, the general psion/wilder list, etc.
The analogy holds.
Incorrect- a few minutes perusal of the XPH reveals 2 things:
1) Psions have subspecialty lists with unique powers that may or may not be shared with other classes, like the Psychic Warrior- but are barred from other Psionic subspecialties and the Wilder class. This is analogous to the full-caster spells that show up in the spell lists from classes like the Wu Jen that are barred from Wizards (though not Sorcerers- according to OA, Sorcerers must either make a decision between the Sorc/Wiz list or the Wu Jen list or may choose from both- the language is a tad ambiguous).
2) There ARE powers that differ in level between psionic classes, like Chameleon (Egoist 2 and Psychic Warrior 1); Empathic Feedback (Psion/Wilder 4, Psychic Warrior 3); Evade Burst (Psion/Wilder 7, Psychic Warrior 3); Hustle (Egoist 3, Psychic Warrior 2); and Mind Blank, Personal (Psion/Wilder 7, Psychic Warrior 6).
Note that power Evade Burst- its a 4 level difference between the Psion and PsyWar versions...a greater gap than your arcane spell hypothetical.
I'm sure there are other "split-level" powers in CompPsi (and other sourcebooks) as well.
Last edited:
Thanee
First Post
Dannyalcatraz said:
There, you said it yourself. One says so explicitly, so it works, the other is silent upon it, so it does not work. That's the difference.
And as already stated numerous times, it doesn't matter at all, if Extra Spell would allow you to learn spells from other classes, since it wouldn't allow you to cast them, so that exercise is pointless either way, without adding new rules to the feat description. That's not a matter of interpretation.
Bye
Thanee
Thanee
First Post
Dannyalcatraz said:
Last time I checked, Collegiate Wizard did not work for Sorcerers at all...
And it's not in the feat section, but is an example feat in the organizations section, so it does not necessarily have to be created with the other one in mind. It's certainly rather pointless to take Extra Spell as a Wizard, but that does not change how it works.
Bye
Thanee
Dannyalcatraz said:
Collegiate Wizard gives practically zero power and utility that gold alone could not give. The only real advantage is time and potentially spell selection (DM dependent).
Nearly the same benefit can be had by finding a Wizard's spellbook and some treasure.
This is not a powerful feat. A useful feat, sure. But, not powerful.
A Wizard could buy specific spells from other Wizards at 50 GP per level (PHB page 179).
At 1st level, this is 150 GP for spell purchase and 300 GP for putting spells into a spell book. Equivalent to a few potions which could easily be used up while low level adventuring.
And, at the cost of a feat.
At 20th level, this is at most 9,950 GP for spell purchase and 19,900 GP for putting spells into a spell book (although many Wizards would try to have a Boccob's book by 10th level, so that would save about 12,640 GP). It would cost him at most 29,850 GP (or 17,210 GP with a Boccob's at 10th). That might sound like a lot, but at 20th level, that's 29,850 / 760,000. That's < 4% of his total wealth. Hardly a drop in the bucket.
Your opinion here does not follow RAW, nor is it very logical.
An overall 4% savings in gold (or ~2.25% for most PC Wizards who gain a Boccob's Book) is not as earthshaking as you are making it out to be.
And, at the cost of a feat.
The only real advantage of Collegiate Wizard is that the Wizard gets to explicitly pick and choose which additional spells he wants whereas without this feat, the DM has a lot more control.
Finally, comparing feats and using one to state functionality of another is not valid. That's like saying that one spell works like another because it does not say that it does not.
Aaron L
Hero
So you are saying that two essentially identical feats function entirely differently because one includes a special clause while the other just doesn't say?
I like to keep things equal and assume that since the feat for psionic powers works that way, the feat for spells feat works that way, too.
I like to keep things equal and assume that since the feat for psionic powers works that way, the feat for spells feat works that way, too.
