Extra Spell

[irdeggman]

This is something that takasi and I have talked about. I see his point that you level but if during the course of an adventure, you level and could not buy scrolls or have access to research lab, that is what takasi thinks that was meant to address. A wizard could get a 3rd spell on a level. But this is borderline waste of a valuable feat IMO.

But on page 181 of Complete Arcane is "the" wizard's feat.

Collegiate Wizard


Now this feat is listed with warnings and cautions, but it is still in the same book as Extra Spell. It is also one of the more "discussed" feats as to whether or not it is "overpowered" and should be allowed in a game.


Prereq: Int 13, wizard 1st level

Benefit - Without quoting the feat it basically enables the wizard to double the "known" spells per level. Instead of 4 + at first level you get 6 + and instead of 2 at each subsequent level you get 4.


So why take Extra Spell when the benefits of this feat is much, much greater?

And as so many people have pointed out not all feats are equally beneficial to all classes.

 

[Votan]

But on page 181 of Complete Arcane is "the" wizard's feat.

Collegiate Wizard


Now this feat is listed with warnings and cautions, but it is still in the same book as Extra Spell. It is also one of the more "discussed" feats as to whether or not it is "overpowered" and should be allowed in a game.


Prereq: Int 13, wizard 1st level

Benefit - Without quoting the feat it basically enables the wizard to double the "known" spells per level. Instead of 4 + at first level you get 6 + and instead of 2 at each subsequent level you get 4.


So why take Extra Spell when the benefits of this feat is much, much greater?

And as so many people have pointed out not all feats are equally beneficial to all classes.

Yes, this feat is about 100 times as beneficial. It grants 2 spells of equal level to what the wizard can cast at every level. I think that the designers decided to be cute an insert a line to convince naive wizard players that this feat could be worthwhile. This backfired by making the feat confusing.

If it does let you pick from any class spell list, a clarifying statement letting you know how this works could have been helpful. For example, if a spell is at many different levels for different classes, which one do you pick? Can a cleric pick Disintegrate off of the Duskblade list instead of the Sorcerer/Wizard list?

Also note that the new canonical 12th level feat for both Rangers and Paladins will become Extra Spell [Wraithstrike]. If you think that is bad, the 9th level feat for a Fighter/Divine Crusader is the same! One just fills all slots with this spell, power attack for the maximum on pretty much every swing and watch as things die really, really fast.

 

[Thanee]

*ahem*

I'm on the "not really agreeing with the FAQ on this one" side, myself.

At any rate, if it really works the way the FAQ says it does, what is the real benefit? To which classes?

'Cause I'm not seeing it.

Spontaneous casters with a highly limited number of spells known can benefit greatly from this feat.

I have used it already, and was not disappointed.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

As Written:
The character can choose any spell to add to his spells known list. The feat itself does not limit which spells these are, it merely provides a way to get another spell and does not restrict that choice of spell to only a spell on the class' spell list. So any spell would work.

But can you cast the spells learned this way, if they are not on the class list?
There's a definite rule about what spells can be cast... and those not on the class spell list cannot.
Since the feat definitely does not add spells to the class spell list, it would be pointless to learn spells from other classes, even if it was possible with the feat.

Also, do you think a Wizard can start the game with Cure Light Wounds written in the spellbook?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So...within the same book you have Collegiate Wizard- a Feat that doubles known spells per level- and another- Extra Spell that lets you "add a (single) spell" your PC couldn't normally learn to his spell list...

That just strengthens my opinion that Extra Spell is intended to be read expansively and not restricted as per the FAQ clarification.

While not all feats are created equal, nor are all feats intended to be used by all PCs, this is a fairly radical difference in power & utility. The limitation on Collegiate Wizard is that the spells must all be part of the class list. Limiting Extra Spell to that same list radically devalues the Feat vis a vis Collegiate Wizard so thoroughly that the only way I could buy the FAQ interpretation is if Extra Spell were limited to spontaneous casters.

Perhaps, just maybe, I'd restrict it to be arcane only for arcane casters, and divine only for divine casters, but that's about it.

 

[Mort]

So...within the same book you have Collegiate Wizard- a Feat that doubles known spells per level- and another- Extra Spell that lets you "add a (single) spell" your PC couldn't normally learn to his spell list...

That just strengthens my opinion that Extra Spell is intended to be read expansively and not restricted as per the FAQ clarification.

While not all feats are created equal, nor are all feats intended to be used by all PCs, this is a fairly radical difference in power & utility. The limitation on Collegiate Wizard is that the spells must all be part of the class list. Limiting Extra Spell to that same list radically devalues the Feat vis a vis Collegiate Wizard so thoroughly that the only way I could buy the FAQ interpretation is if Extra Spell were limited to spontaneous casters.

Perhaps, just maybe, I'd restrict it to be arcane only for arcane casters, and divine only for divine casters, but that's about it.

Once you restrict arcane to arcane and divine to divine you are essentially admiting that you don't think the feat was meant to go off list.

Looking at the abilities that allow a spellcaster to go off list, we can look at the Warmage and the Beguiler. Both have an "advanced learning" class feature that explicitly allows them to pick 1 spell not on their class list and add it. Both put large limitations on the spells available and both require that the spell added be considered 1 level higher. The Duskblade btw, which is in the same book as the beguiler and also has a set spell list, is notably missing this ability.

Also, intent of the designers is a pretty tough argument. Especially since you so quickly dismiss the FAQ, and its author undeniably has a better insight into intent than anyone posting here.

And why do you (and others) keep saying the benefit is so minor - at 6th level a sorcerer knows 2 2nd level spells. With this feat he can know 3. That's 50% more spells than other sorcerers of that level, hardly insignificant. A 9th level sorcerer who takes this feat will know 4 3rd level spells, instead of the usual 3; again a significant (33%) increase.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Once you restrict arcane to arcane and divine to divine you are essentially admiting that you don't think the feat was meant to go off list.

Actually, no.

In D&D (and not in other game systems), I maintain a fairly hard line between arcane and divine spells- divine spells are granted by divine sources, thus are not subject to being "researched," the arcane versions of those spells that have both arcane and divine sources are the exception.

There are lots of spells that are arcane that are not on the sorcerer/wizard list- like those that are on the Wu Jen list.

And vice versa.

And why do you (and others) keep saying the benefit is so minor - at 6th level a sorcerer knows 2 2nd level spells. With this feat he can know 3. That's 50% more spells than other sorcerers of that level, hardly insignificant. A 9th level sorcerer who takes this feat will know 4 3rd level spells, instead of the usual 3; again a significant (33%) increase.

Compare that to Collegiate Wizard, which grants a 100% increase while staying within the list.

To me, that means that the expansive reading of Extra Spell that grants a single spell is only balanced in regards to Collegiate Wizard if it grants access outside of a class' spell- like the similar Expanded Knowledge feat for psionic PCs.

 

[Mort]

Actually, no.

In D&D (and not in other game systems), I maintain a fairly hard line between arcane and divine spells- divine spells are granted by divine sources, thus are not subject to being "researched," the arcane versions of those spells that have both arcane and divine sources are the exception.

There are lots of spells that are arcane that are not on the sorcerer/wizard list- like those that are on the Wu Jen list

And vice versa.

But the line is still only one of class lists, that's it. How the feat should work in any given game is purely up to the DM, but that's not what we are discussing here.

Compare that to Collegiate Wizard, which grants a 100% increase while staying within the list.

To me, that means that the expansive reading of Extra Spell that grants a single spell is only balanced in regards to Collegiate Wizard if it grants access outside of a class' spell- like the similar Expanded Knowledge feat for psionic PCs.

Again, no one ever said all feats were created equal, and in fact many people claim collegiate wizard is too powerful. You shouldn't set the bar at that feat. It's like me saying any feat better than toughnes is clearly too powerful and should be enterpreted to not be better than toughness.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But the line is still only one of class lists, that's it.

No, its a line based upon the nature of the source of the magic.

While there are many things mages can discover about the nature of magic, divine magic can ONLY source from divine wellsprings, and are thus beyond access to anyone who does not have levels in a class with divine spellcasting abilities.

Its like the old joke:

The world's scientists finally found out how to make life from inert materials, so they challenged God to a contest to see who could make the best human being.

On the day of the contest, the scientists showed up with lots of assistants, all kinds of machinery, lab equipment, and raw materials. God showed up empty handed and alone.

The judges addressed both sides, and said "OK- you have 24 hours to make a human being...aaaand...GO!"

The lab assistants ran to the bins to get raw materials...

And God, wagging his finger, said "Ah-ah-ahhhh!- First, make your own dirt!"

And, for the record, note that I said

Perhaps, just maybe, I'd restrict it to be arcane only for arcane casters, and divine only for divine casters, but that's about it.

As in, I'm not decided about crossing that line, but that restriction is only the barest possibility.

...no one ever said all feats were created equal

I myself said that they weren't.

...many people claim collegiate wizard is too powerful. You shouldn't set the bar at that feat.

I didn't- I set it at Expanded Knowledge.

Collegiate Wizard is essentially a cousin of Extra Spell, one directed solely at wizards according to its prereqs. It doubles a wizard's spells known, but the spells can only come from the sorc/wiz list.

Extra Spell (pre-FAQ) had no limitation to source, but only adds one spell. To my mind, that is actually pretty balanced as compared to Collegiate Wizard.

There is no Psionic feat to compare to collegiate wizard, AFAIK. If there were one, I'd expect it to be limited to the PC's class list, and would consider that to be balance with Expanded Knowlege (which adds 1 power from any power list).

 

[Mort]

No, its a line based upon the nature of the source of the magic.

While there are many things mages can discover about the nature of magic, divine magic can ONLY source from divine wellsprings, and are thus beyond access to anyone who does not have levels in a class with divine spellcasting abilities.

But this is from your own interpretation of the line between arcane and divine and has nothing at all to do with what we are discussing. You are free to set any and all limits in your own game.

I didn't- I set it at Expanded Knowledge.

Collegiate Wizard is essentially a cousin of Extra Spell, one directed solely at wizards according to its prereqs. It doubles a wizard's spells known, but the spells can only come from the sorc/wiz list.

Extra Spell (pre-FAQ) had no limitation to source, but only adds one spell. To my mind, that is actually pretty balanced as compared to Collegiate Wizard.

There is no Psionic feat to compare to collegiate wizard, AFAIK. If there were one, I'd expect it to be limited to the PC's class list, and would consider that to be balance with Expanded Knowlege (which adds 1 power from any power list).

Again expanded knowledge explicitly states that it is an exception, this feat has no such language. Expanded knowledge explicitly states "add to your powers known" this feat does not. Maybe this feat should be broader than it is, and anyone who wants to can expand it. I'm just saying the baseline of this feat is not to allow off-list spells.

And that's all the rules really are: a baseline. If in my game a wizard says "hey, I'd like this wu-jen spell it would really fit my character," and for some reason they couldn't research it, I'd likely allow it, but that's because it's my game. I would still think the baseline is class list only.