Extra Spell

[Dannyalcatraz]

Can you actually post an example of a feat or ability that actually does allow a class to choose spells from a non-class spell list?

Expanded Knowledge is the closest analogue I know.

 

[Rhun]

Expanded Knowledge is the closest analogue I know.

So if the final line of the Expanded Knowledge feat read "You may choose any power" instead of "You may choose any power, including powers from another discipline's list or even another class' list," would you change your ruling on how the feat works to not allow other lists? Because to me the "You may choose ANY power" line is clear enough, and the rest of the statement is simply redundant.

 

[Votan]

So if the final line of the Expanded Knowledge feat read "You may choose any power" instead of "You may choose any power, including powers from another discipline's list or even another class' list," would you change your ruling on how the feat works to not allow other lists? Because to me the "You may choose ANY power" line is clear enough, and the rest of the statement is simply redundant.

But it is fairly interesting that the designers felt the need to inser thtis statement there. Of course, given that this is due to a very subtle point of rules precedence (at least as best as I can tell) that is easy to get wrong, a clarifying statement at the end of Extra Spell would have been worth it as an alternative to the wizard text. Who cares if no wizard ever takes the spell? They don;t take Extra Rage either and nobody see that as a tragedy!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

*ahem*

I'm on the "not really agreeing with the FAQ on this one" side, myself.

At any rate, if it really works the way the FAQ says it does, what is the real benefit? To which classes?

'Cause I'm not seeing it.

 

[Rhun]

But it is fairly interesting that the designers felt the need to inser thtis statement there.

Well sure, because whoever wrote Expanded Knowledge had the common sense to know if he didn't include that little statement, that there would be DMs freaking out across the world because they wouldn't be able to interpret what the word ANY actually meant.

 

[Felix]

And FWIW, if a feat needs to be included in the FAQ for clarification of exactly how it operates, that is a prime example of it being badly worded...why else would it need clarification?

Actually, the feat itself is fairly clear. "You learn one additional spell at any level up to one level lower..." This wording does not limit the feat-chooser to which spell he chooses.

If the feat intended to only allow extra spells from the class' spell list, then it was poorly worded to express that limitation; you must assume that the intent was otherwise to suspect that the wording of the feat was unclear.

The FAQ entry does indeed confirm the suspicion that many folks had regarding the intent of the feat, and those looking for confirmation that the feat limits the choice to those spells within the class spell list found it in the FAQ. But it does not change the fact that the feat standing alone is very clear: the character who chooses this feat may "learn one additional spell". No other restrictions were placed upon that choice except that done by DMs who didn't want spellcasters venturing outside of their class list and those thinking along the same lines as the FAQ.

And let me conclude by saying that something being clear and something being balanced or well written is not the same at all; often the meaning of what has been written and the intent of the author diverge without acknowledgement.

 

[Rhun]

Actually, the feat itself is fairly clear. "You learn one additional spell at any level up to one level lower..." This wording does not limit the feat-chooser to which spell he chooses.

Actually, this is the exact way I interpret the feat. But since 90% of people here don't agree with my interpretation, I am left with the conclusion that the feat must be poorly written.

The FAQ entry does indeed confirm the suspicion that many folks had regarding the intent of the feat, and those looking for confirmation that the feat limits the choice to those spells within the class spell list found it in the FAQ. But it does not change the fact that the feat standing alone is very clear: the character who chooses this feat may "learn one additional spell". No other restrictions were placed upon that choice except that done by DMs who didn't want spellcasters venturing outside of their class list and those thinking along the same lines as the FAQ.

Preach it, brother! This is the point I have been trying to get across for some time now.

 

[Votan]

*ahem*

I'm on the "not really agreeing with the FAQ on this one" side, myself.

At any rate, if it really works the way the FAQ says it does, what is the real benefit? To which classes?

'Cause I'm not seeing it.

Sorcerers who want an extra 4th level spell known seem to be the primary target audience.

In general, spells known is the key balancing feature of the Spontaneous casters. That being said, Arcane Disciple is brutal if you can find a way to synch up the spellcasting stats for the domain and the main spells.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

"You learn one additional spell at any level up to one level lower..."

Is that the actual wording? (I don't have the book in front of me...) If so, that would put a hole in the "cost & research" interpretation of "unable to learn" (see post #15)- if a PC has the time & resources to learn a higher level or same level spell, he definitely has the time & resources to learn a lesser one.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Below is the feat from the CA. Below that is my submission for what I consider a better wording for what I thought the feat was. Now if this feat gets approved it doesn't always mean that the taker of the feat would get what they want. There may be spells that are imbalancing and for the sake of game balance and continuity be disallowed.


Extra Spell
You may learn an additional spell.
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.

Benefit: You learn one additional spell at any level up to one level lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast. Thus, a 4th-level sorcerer (maximum spell level 2nd) gains a new 0-level or 1st-level spell known with which to expand her repertoire. For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you learn a new spell at any level up to one level lower than the highest level of spell you can cast.

Expanded Spell Knowledge
You may learn an additional spell.
Prerequisite: Caster level 7th, Knowledge Arcana 10 ranks for Arcane spells or Knowledge Religion 10 ranks for Divine spells.

Benefit: You learn one additional spell at any level up to one level lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast from the lists for your class. You learn one additional spell at any level up to two levels lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast from the lists that your class does not have access to. You are limited to arcane spells if you are an arcane caster and divine spells if you are a divine caster unless you meet both knowledge skill prerequisites. You learn one additional spell at any level up to three levels lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast from the lists of divine if you are an arcane caster or arcane if you are a divine caster.
Thus, an 8th-level sorcerer (maximum spell level 4th) gains a new 0-level, 1st-level, 2nd-level or 3rd-level spell known with which to expand her repertoire. Restrictions as stated above.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. If you are a wizard who has to prepare spells, not a spontaneous caster, then you can learn two additional spells from list available. If spells are taken from lists other than wizard then you are subject to above conditions.