Eyebite & Divine Challenge Combo

[James McMurray]

When you use a power, you apply all of it's affects. Later on you look at that power and see what's still in play. The two effects (mark and damage) have seperate timers attached to them. The mark lasts until you challenge someone else, it gets overridden by a new mark, or you fail to engage.

The damage is a separate, but lightly coupled, effect which is timed to end at the end of your next turn. If we read this to mean that the "before the start of your next turn" timer resets itself every time you take a turn, then powers like Ray of Frost, which end at the end of your next turn will last forever, because there's no such thing as "your next turn" when every turn is "your current turn."

WotC is pretty straightforward and repetitive with this edition. I assume that if they intended for it to work once every turn they would have worded it more like the other effects that work once every turn. Instead, they specified how many times it happens, and what the deadline is.

I certainly wouldn't argue with a GM that told me my Divine Challenge was now vastly more powerful, but it's not how the power works to me.

 

[Mengu]

I assume that if they intended for it to work once every turn they would have worded it more like the other effects that work once every turn. Instead, they specified how many times it happens, and what the deadline is.

I can see where you're coming from. In earlier incarnations of the power (see Corrin), it said "The target takes this damage only once per turn." In this older incarnation, there was no doubt the power worked every turn. Perhaps we are using what we saw then, and trying to read the same meaning into the new wording.

This is probably worth double checking.

 

[Captain Eru]

eyesbite has to hit every round

Actually, only the attempt has to be made. As long as the Warlock Soldier of the Faith continues to roll an attack, the Divine Challenge remains in effect. However, the invisibility would disappear. While legal, it does tend to break from the spirit of the divine challenge.

Technically speaking, a Warlock Soldier of the Faith could issue a Divine Challenge as a Minor Action from 5 squares away, move 10 squares away as a Move Action, attack with Eyebite as a Standard Action, and be 10 squares away. If the attack succeeds, the Warlock Soldier of the Faith is invisible. If it fails, the target would have to close that distance. If the Warlock Soldier of the Faith did it right, terrain would prevent that. A tactical Warlock Soldier of the Faith could theoretically continue this pattern indefiniely, making it difficult if not impossible for the target to hit it with anything but a ranged attack, and often remaining invisible as it slowly stripped away hit points.

But Divine Challenge is basically saying "Red Rover, Red Rover, we call the Axe wielding Minotaur over". You're not supposed to run away. That's just using the letter of the power to defeat the spirit of the power.

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

Ray of Frost isn't part of an effect that remains in effect though. There's nothing in the power that suggests it even. The divine challenge remains in effect.

The reason Divine Challenge continues the damage is because it says while it is marked apply this effect. Also apply this other effect.

I guess it depends on how you view the coupling of the mark and the damage.

 

[James McMurray]

I guess it depends on how you view the coupling of the mark and the damage.

Very much so.

I'll say this: nothing that expands on the currently presented logic will convince me that "the first time prior to your next turn" means "the first time every turn from here on out." I'm guessing that nothing I can say which is just a rephrasing of what I've already said will convince others that "once before then" means "once and only once, plus you'd better get it done before then."

That's cool. If something new comes up, I'd love to hear it. But I've read and re-read the power, and the only interpretation I can go with is that it only works once, and only within the given time frame.

I'll put cash money on a bet that says we'll get many different answers to this from WotC's customer service reps, and eventually whoever the current head rules dude is will settle on one interpretation to add to the FAQ.

I will say that my interpretation does not majorly hamper a paladin, as he can simply reapply his mark with his (oft unused) minor action. It does, however, severely hamper the multi-classed paladin, who could otherwise use this ability as a constant source of damage much stronger than any ability granted by any other multi-class feat. Given the power of the multi-class feats compared to the other Heroic Tier fare, any ruling that makes one of them even more powerful should be looked at closely. I don't think letting the damage repeat infinitely is completely broken, but it's definitely stronger than the rest of the options if you're built to utilize it (good Charisma and at-will ranged attacks). The Eyebite-ing Warlock is one of the strongest examples of how it can be abused, but even a lowly cleric with a good defender can keep this going indefinitely, while simultaneously buffing his allies.

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

I'm down with agreeing to disagree. Heh. Though I need to ask, when you use the term infinitely apply the damage, you do mean once per encounter still, correct, to one target? I didn't miss something when the challenge could be re-applied more then once per encounter by a character multi classing into paladin is what I am getting at.

 

[James McMurray]

Yeah, definitely still once per encounter. And the target can still get rid of it in the usual ways (perhaps by hiding behind a nearby boulder to prevent you from attacking it for a round). I probably should have said "potentially infinite."

 

[knizia.fan]

Re-applying Divine Challenge

I will say that my interpretation does not majorly hamper a paladin, as he can simply reapply his mark with his (oft unused) minor action.

Doesn't the Divine Challenge power say that you can't place a divine challenge on someone already affected by a divine challenge? If so, then in order to get a threat of damage every round, you'd have to move the challenge to a new creature once per round. Any single creature could be threatened by challenge damage for at most every other round.

Whichever way it works, I agree that the power is confusingly written.

 

[WalterKovacs]

(a) The Paladin multiclass has the highest requirement [two abilities at 13] of any multiclass feat

(b) The Ranger multiclass, with the most open ended requirement [choice of two different abilities at 13], provides a +1d6 to one attack per turn against the same target for the rest of the encounter. That damage is much easier to apply than the Divine Challenge, and is similarly "potentially infinite", and can't be ended prematurely simply by avoiding the multiclassed ranger for a round

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

Oh wow, VERY good catch Knizia. I think many of us agree that the power is supposed to be possibly maintained from round to round on a single target but this would make it pretty rotten since it would require two opponents AND 2 minor actions to keep the challenge going on one target.

And of course the power would suck against one target since you would only have one time of doing damage, and then it would be a generic mark.

I'm more inclined to say that does point towards the intent of the power even if the wording is very confusing.


Walter, there's no possibility of infinite damage from the ranger multi-class Quarry. It's been subject to errata so it only lasts 1 round.