Fallen World- 13th lvl homebrew (dark and mature)

[Wrahn]

I apologize Jemal, I missed that you found way to rework your paladin. I don't agree that paladins wouldn't recognize legitimate authority of such regime. They are LAWFUL and this regime IS legitimate, if evil. They would look to provide protection, pointing out extenuating circumstances etc. but would still report breaker of law to "the police".

Deciding what regime you accept and what not is NOT lawful but chaotic, it's matter of personal preference (hence chaotic). Different would be stopping execution on the spot (unless law dictates otherwise), torture etc.

This is why there are so many "Is this what a paladin would do?" threads.

In my opinion Jemal is correct. How can a champion of Truth, Justice and all that stuff be expected to stand on the sidelines when innocent people are being tortured and killed? My litmus test for what a paladin would do is what would Superman do? And if Superman was living in this world he would fight the establishment with every fiber of his being. Being lawful does not mean blindly following authority, in fact I would think that a paladin would be even more angry with the demons because they are corrupting what a legitimate government is suppose to do.

 

[Jemal]

Just b/c someone takes over a country and proclaims themself the ruler, and then says "Raping and murdering people is Not only legal but encouraged" doesn't mean the paladin has to accept it. Lawful GOOD, not lawful stupid.
Legitimate authority is maintaining social order without resorting to undue violence according to most political scientists.
Democracy, Communism, and Monarchy are 3 examples of Legitimate Authority.
Tyranny and Dictatorship are the two most-oft cited examples of ILLegitimate Authority.

It's up to the DM, in the end. However, if any DM ever tells my paladin that a situation like this is "legitimate authority", I'll just walk away.

 

[Neurotic]

Lawfulness

He doesn't have to agree. there are human rulers who ruled before demons came and they survived. Would you deny them authority. What about LE rule of Banite tyrant. What about strict military state where military holds all places of power but keeps demons at bay. Would those people living in such state have a say in the matter. No. would they prefer demons? Again no. And so military rule stays. Demons may be chaotic, but as long as the laws exist (and laws are by definition not chaotic) and are more or less justly applied, paladin cannot oppose them. As I said, torture and execution without trial would be something he interferes with, but not legitimate trial. Regardless of laws.

What you describe is his Good side rebeling against his Lawful outlook. Laws themselves are neither good nor evil. Would law saying that all rapists should be raped as punishment be evil. Probably. But would it be unlawful? No. Legitimate goverment said: This is the law and so it is.

 

[Jemal]

The point I was making is that any government that would MAKE such a law Isn't LEGITIMATE, b/c it does not maintain social order without resorting to undue violence. The military rule you described Would be toeing the line, depending on what they enforced.

The simple act of having power does not make you a legitimate authority, nor does length of time you've had said power. It's how you use it.

As I said, torture and execution without trial would be something he interferes with, but not legitimate trial. Regardless of laws.

And here you contradict yourself.. So if it was the LAW that anybody could be Tortured and Executed for any reason if the lord decided, what then? Is that still LEGITIMATE? Where do you draw the line?

I ask b/c the code specificaly states LEGITIMATE authority, not just AUTHORITY. Anybody who has power has AUTHORITY. What makes it Legitimate? Is it how much power you have? how many people you control? or is it how you USE your power?
Technically an evil character with Leadership has AUTHORITY over a group of people.. and since they follow him willingly(more or less), that authority could even be considered Legitimate by some.
HELL itself is a Legitimate Authority according to you, b/c Devils are LAWFUL Evil. Therefore Paladins are not allowed to interfere with the dealings of Hell.

Makes no sense to me.

 

[Neurotic]

Lawful

Just because race/plane is lawful evil doesn't make it legitimate. Take this for example: for thousand years one family ruled over small kingdom. Most of the rulers were banite priests and thus lawful evil. People in the kingdom lived for thousand years in such, they know about birocraucy, corruption etc and they use it. If you break The Law there is punishment. If you're poor, you're out of luck.

Now comes rebelion and throne is overthrown by Neutral Warrior. Several of former rulers kin still live. Are they or are they not LEGITIMATE HEIRS?

I didn't say that paladin needs to agree with that. Also, Hell has nine rulers and any and all devils would say they are legitimate. As long as they can maintain their power that is. But they are legitimate.

Paladin would fight against such regime, not because it is illegitimate but because it's evil. That's all there is. But for breaking the law people should be punished according to the law and thus paladin should report the deed and make everything in his power to see that prisoner is treated fairly.

Take into account that we are not talking about today, with all the talk about human rights and such. While D&D is far more enlightened then our own Dark Ages it is still absolute monarchy and feudalism as most common rules and yes, sovereigns word IS the law.

 

[Jemal]

You still didn't answer the question - WHO decides something is legitimate, and HOW. Your argument seems to be Lawful = Legitimate.

 

[Neurotic]

Decisions, decisions

What am I? A lawyer?

Just kidding. People decide. Not by voting but by actions.

In the example above, if people continue with their life long practices and complain how soft is today goverment that killers walk again after only flogging or prison, if they help former rulers then yes, they are legitimate.

If people support the rule passively i.e. by not doing anything even when given the chance (such as supporting and hiding the resistance movement) or protecting the prosecuted (such s were Jews under Nazis) then yes, they are supporting the goverment and it's legitimate.

It's upon your paladin to change that, but he could just as easily start slaying those supportive of evil goverment, as try to get it right from the inside following lawful methods. Point isn't who decides, but that YOU shouldn't. Who appointed YOU as legitimate authority do decide if another is legitimate.

It's fun being devil's lawyer

For the record, I live in free country and enjoy it. But we have (stricter ? is that good word?) stronger laws then in the US where (in my oppinion) too much power is given to personal freedom laws. But that's what US citizens want, no? :\

And no, I've never been in US but have friends who went for their PhDs there

 

[Neurotic]

Ebon

Name:       Ebon of Crystal Spire
Race:       Dwarf (sub-race still undecided)
Player:     PLAYER 
Classes:    Cleric3 Fighter6 Dwarven Defender4
Hit Points: 137Experience: 78000 / 91000
Alignment:  Lawful Neutral
Vision:     Darkvision (60')
Speed:      Walk 20 ft.
Languages:  Abyssal, Common, Dwarven, Terran
 
Stat    Score   Mod
STR      14      (+2)
DEX      13      (+1)
CON      20      (+5)
INT      14      (+2)
WIS      12      (+1)
CHA      8       (-1)
 
-------------------------- Skills --------------------------
Skill                   Total   Rnk     Stat    Msc
Balance                  1        0.0      1        0
Climb                    3        1.0      2        0
Concentration            7        2.5      5        0
Craft (Default)          2        0.0      2        0
Craft (Armorsmithing)    4        0.0      2        2
Craft (Blacksmithing)    16       12.0     2        2
Craft (Gemcutting)       6        4.0      2        0
Craft (Metalworking)     4        0.0      2        2
Craft (Stonemasonry)     4        0.0      2        2
Craft (Weaponsmithing)   4        0.0      2        2
Decipher Script          2        0.0      2        0
Diplomacy                1        0.0      -1       2
Disable Device           2        0.0      2        0
Escape Artist            1        0.0      1        0
Forgery                  2        0.0      2        0
Heal                     5        4.0      1        0
Hide                     1        0.0      1        0
Intimidate               2        3.0      -1       0
Jump                     -4       0.0      2        -6
Knowledge (Default)      2        0.0      2        0
Knowledge (Rituals)      8        6.5      2        0
Knowledge (Religion)     4        2.0      2        0
Knowledge (The Planes)   4        2.0      2        0
Listen                   5        4.0      1        0
Literacy                 0        0.0      0        0
Move Silently            1        0.0      1        0
Open Lock                1        0.0      1        0
Ride                     6        5.0      1        0
Search                   2        0.0      2        0
Sense Motive             10       9.0      1        0
Speak Language           0        0.0      0        0
Spellcraft               2        0.0      2        0
Spot                     5        4.0      1        0
Survival (The Planes)    1        0.0      1        0
Survival (Default) 	 1        0.0      1        0
Swim                     2        0.0      2        0
                                                   
 
-------------------------- Feats ---------------------------
Blind-Fight
  In melee, every time you miss because of concealment, you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit.
  
Armor Proficiency (All)
  When you wear a type of armor with which you are proficient, the armor check penalty for that armor applies only 

to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pocket, and Tumble checks.

Weapon Focus (Warhammer) +1 to hit
Weapon Spec (Warhammer) +2 damage
Dodge +1 AC vs. one opponent
Endurance
Toughness +3 hp
Weapon Expertise +x to AC for -x to hit
Power attack +x to damage for -x to hit
Combat casting +4 concentration check in close combat
  
 
-------------------- Special Abilities ---------------------
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids
+2 racial bonus on Appraise and Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
+4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type.
Defensive Stance 3/day
Spontaneous casting
Stability
Stonecunning
Trap Sense (Ex) +1
Turn Undead (Su) 2/day (turn level 3) (turn damage 2d6+2)
Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)

 
-------------------------- Combat --------------------------
 
    Total / Touch / Flat Footed
AC: 16    / 16    / 16
 
Initiative:   +1
BAB:          +12/+7/+2
Melee to hit:  +14/+9/+4 
Damage: 1d8 +2(STR) +2 (spec) +enchantment as of yet undecided
Critical 20/x3
Ranged tohit: +13/+8/+3
 
Fortitude:    +16
Reflex:       +4
Will:         +9
 
Unarmed attack:
to hit:       +14/+9/+4
damage:       1d3+2
critical:     20/x2
 
--------------------- Special Abilities --------------------
 
Ebon of Crystal Spire can Turn/Rebuke undead 2 times per day.
Turning check:  1d20-1
Turning damage: 2d6 +2 

                     
SPELLS: 
Level 0 (4)
Decode (Divination)
Detect Magic (Divination)
Purify Food and Drink (Transmutation)
Resistance (Abjuration)
 
 
Level 1 (3 +1)
*Detect Secret Doors (Divination)
Divine Favor (Evocation)
Endure Elements (Abjuration)
Protection from Evil (Abjuration)
 
 
Level 2 (1 +1)
Bull's Strength (Transmutation)
*Shield Other (Abjuration)

Taken Protection and Divination as domains (possible change to dwarf, metal or caverns if approved)
  
  
 ------------------------ Description -----------------------
Height: 4' 5"             Weight: 178 lbs.                Gender: Male	
Eyes:   Smooth gray  Hair: Bald, Beard in Braids    Skin: Gray with veins of mineral veins
Quirks: Honest; My word is my bond. Honor above all.
Speech style: Soft Voice       
Quotable: Even without feet, I could kill you.

 

[Blackrat]

Damn. I'd so much love to play this but I think I have too much on my hands right now. So I have to fold. I just don't have enough time to get a good background done by saturday.

 

[Jemal]

So, if at least some people support it then it's legitimate.. Even if they only support it on fear of Death.
*sigh* That means that ALL governments are legitimate, b/c even if there IS resistance/infighting, there's SOMEONE who is supporting the ruler, or he/she/they wouldn't be in power in the first place.
Therefore the whole "respect legitimate authority" thing makes absolutely no sense, b/c technically, a balor taking over a town is 'legitimate' authority.. Most of the people aren't going to oppose him, cuz he'll kill them.

It's upon your paladin to change that, but he could just as easily start slaying those supportive of evil goverment, as try to get it right from the inside following lawful methods. Point isn't who decides, but that YOU shouldn't. Who appointed YOU as legitimate authority do decide if another is legitimate.

? So I can't oppose the government directly, but I can undercut their support by killing everyone UNDERNEATH them?



Also, on a side note, Robo-Cop is the best example of a present-day Paladin, not Superman.
Prime Directives: 1) "Serve the public trust" 2) "Protect the innocent" 3) "Uphold the law"
(In that order)

*And just for the record, I've never been to the states either*