Falling off the 4ed bandwagon

[Barastrondo]

And, well...pixie rogue with 30 DEX. Some D&D games neatly demonstrate why Exalted needed to be published.

...

Sounds like a dozen kinds of awesome to me. How disappointing that players should be restrained with rules to compensate for DMs who can't handle lateral thinking.

These two sentences are so incredibly interesting next to one another. Why does the pixie rogue not sound like a dozen kinds of awesome, disappointingly restrained with rules to compensate for DMs who can't handle lateral thinking? Why is crushing someone to death with a 1st-level spell not the sort of demonstration why Exalted needed to be published? Truly, everyone plays D&D in a completely different fashion.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

When I say creative I mean available for use outside of the intended. I don't have a bunch of examples, because well, I'm not feeling creative right now. Something like using continual light to create a lure to draw up a big fish from the bottom of a deep river as opposed to using it as a light source for vision as it was intended.

Just pointing out that this kind of creativity is limited by the DM and not any particular ruleset. 4e allows this as much as any other system and as the set of utility spells increase we will see more of this kind of thing.
In fact all the DM advice in 4e encourages this kind of thing.

 

[jgbrowning]

Really? Most wizards I saw played in 3E tended to keep lots of spells on scrolls, and just pop out the scroll that they needed. They'd always have a stash of the utility spells on scrolls whenever possible.

We had different experiences. I guess my running a campaign where spells are only gained at level and by acquiring scrolls makes a big difference.

What environment is a wizard not good in, aside from anti-magic zones?

Any that he doesn't have the right spells for?

joe b.

 

[Fifth Element]

You mean someone actually has to swim down and pull him out, or get him out of his armor so he can pull himself out without using magic? The horror! Sorry couldn't resist, I just detest when magic becomes the solution to every problem in a game. IMO this limits creative thinking to a great degree rather than enhancing it.

I completely agree with this line of thinking. When the DM says "Character X is drowning", the response "I cast water breathing on him" is not a creative solution. It's just using a spell in the way it was intended to be used.

 

[Fifth Element]

Any that he doesn't have the right spells for?

"We rest for the night."

Far too common a problem in 3E, in my experience. The wizard isn't optimally prepped, so the rest of the party hangs around while he gets prepped.

 

[jgbrowning]

Seriously, do you realize how many little notes and rules have been added to a lot of simple spells over the years to prevent them from being abused by "creative spellcasting"?

Take the simple level 1 spell Enlarge. In 2E, the text "the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by growth" was added from the original AD&D because players would want to do stuff like enlarge a person in their armor and crush them to death in it with a level 1 spell. In 3E, they added, "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack", because players decided that 2 Enlarges are better than 1.

That's just one example.

Many spells have had additional disclaimers and restrictions added onto them over time through the various editions in order to prevent certain overpowered "creative casting". For you to tell me that cheesing encounters is not possible in a true RPG, only in a CRPG, is completely false.

I guess we, unsurprisingly, have a difference of opinion. I view many of those spell clarifications as statements about corner-cases regarding power of an object rather than statements about cheesing encounters through creative use of said object.

I've always let players do what they want. If they find a tactic that works very well and they want to use it over and over and over, more power to them. If they find that boring, well, they can decide to not use that tactic.

What some people believe (including the 4E designers) was that casters just had so many tricks up their sleeves, frequently that were used in ways that weren't really intended, that they frequently overshadowed non-magic users to severe degrees. All too often the result of the challenge is more about the characters (and classes), not the players.

IMO, much of the hubbub about magic-users overshadowing other players was based upon the potential of magic-users to do such, not the actuality as seen at the game table.

It's really obvious that 4E design is intentionally working to try to allow different classes share the spotlight and get their chances too. Magic users weren't pushed into the backseat, but rather everyone else is getting more turns in the front seat now.

True. In exchange for magic becoming almost exclusively a tactical manifestation concerned with damage/condition/movement that maps almost exactly with non-magical abilities.

joe b.

 

[jgbrowning]

Just pointing out that this kind of creativity is limited by the DM and not any particular ruleset. 4e allows this as much as any other system and as the set of utility spells increase we will see more of this kind of thing.
In fact all the DM advice in 4e encourages this kind of thing.

I disagree. Rule sets play large roles in determining the kind and type of creativity by which the tools provided by the rule sets can be used. As a silly example, chess allows for no creativity as concerns piece movement.

joe b.

 

[jgbrowning]

I completely agree with this line of thinking. When the DM says "Character X is drowning", the response "I cast water breathing on him" is not a creative solution. It's just using a spell in the way it was intended to be used.

Well then, think of a situation in which casting waterbreathing in under 10 minutes (in a creative manner) is possible if you find my off-the-cuff example lacking. Use that situation as an example of creativity.

I'll argue that one can be almost inherently more creative with something that has a less of a casting time than one can be creative with exactly the same something that has a longer casting time. There are exceptions, of course, but I would say it's a good general rule.

joe b.

 

[jgbrowning]

"We rest for the night."

Far too common a problem in 3E, in my experience. The wizard isn't optimally prepped, so the rest of the party hangs around while he gets prepped.

Again, that's something that's not common in my experience. And anyway, how is that really a problem? Choosing to rest when there's no negative effects or risks in doing such doesn't seem like much a problem to me.

joe b.

 

[pawsplay]

Again, that's something that's not common in my experience. And anyway, how is that really a problem? Choosing to rest when there's no negative effects or risks in doing such doesn't seem like much a problem to me.

joe b.

Heh. I just pictured a gang of adventurers as a group of very powerful, dangerous speed users. "Can't sleep now... we can make it to the bottom level. We can make it! We can make it! I'm tell you man, can't sleep now, can't sleep now..."