Falling off the 4ed bandwagon

[Aus_Snow]

Magic is special because it has no real world example as a guide. When I create a range of weights that can be lifted using the Strength ability, I have real world examples to assess for guidance. So, too, when I create a rope using skill. Or when I calibrate the varying effectiveness of weapons or armor.

So. . . would it be fair to say that, using this model of gameplay / game design, only those who utilise 'magic' can go beyond known (or, perhaps, 'reasonable') human limits? Or, in the case of 'demihumans', those limits plus a bit, and even then, in measurable, predictable ways?

I have encountered that perspective before, but I thought I'd ask, just to make sure I understand where you (and possibly others in the thread) are coming from there.

For the record, it's not a perspective I favour. . . unless magic has a price. And then some. So, for D&D as it stands, that would be a 'no'. Not for me, I mean. Actually, I can see what was attempted for 4e, in that way. Just doesn't appeal, personally.

 

[Reigan]

Its not just about creativity, I think a lot of this argument is really about individuality. There is a strong desire to be the one that solves the problem (and there is nothing wrong with this) and to be the standout player that everyone else relies on. Spell casting classes where just better at allowing this than the others.

With 4e's team based approach its harder to express your individuality in this way, there is no class that offers the flexibility to be the ultimate lone problem solver. I guess you just have to join the team.

 

[Garthanos]

. . . unless magic has a price. And then some. So, for D&D as it stands, that would be a 'no'. Not for me, I mean.

The price of power theme is there in 4e I would say not intense enough. The Bloodmage paragon path (where you strengthen your spells by devoting your own hit points to the act) is one instance available directly in the players handbook... and recently the invokers(divine flavored wizards) own effects have negative consequences on the caster.

There is also a lot more room to introduce more of that kind of price and maybe allow it to have more impact as well.l

Note taking risky gambits in order to gain more powerful attacks are also available in the martial powers it isn't totally unique to arcane or spell casting context.

 

[Fifth Element]

I don't think I'm understanding what you mean. In order to use waterbreathing, a 4e wizard most definitely must think ahead, not on his feet. Nothing's been moved from prep to play.

If water breathing the ritual takes 10 minutes to cast, then it cannot be used in a situation where you need to save your fighter from drowning right now. That option is gone. You need to get creative, think on your feet. You still have a multitude of options available, if you think creatively, but the solve problem X spell is not one of them.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

You need to get creative, think on your feet. You still have a multitude of options available, if you think creatively, but the solve problem X spell is not one of them.

I completely understand your point.

The problem arises when (You have a multitude of options available, if you think creatively) ---> (No, you can' t do that. Or that. Or that. Or that...)

Reducing the number of possible solutions and forcing the player to "think creatively" in order to eventually arrive at a permissible solution is not particularly creative, either.

 

[AllisterH]

If water breathing the ritual takes 10 minutes to cast, then it cannot be used in a situation where you need to save your fighter from drowning right now. That option is gone. You need to get creative, think on your feet. You still have a multitude of options available, if you think creatively, but the solve problem X spell is not one of them.

And this is why I personally like the ritual system.

The pre 3e magic system has a cost. Namely spell slots. Water breathing to use as an example came at a cost of a Fireball so really, you would only use Water breathing if you did your prep BEFOREHAND.

If not, you came up with a solution right then and there.

The same thing applies to rituals. The cost is time. If you need it RIGHT this minute, a player is forced to to use the same avenures as he wold in pre 3e.

Magic is still awesome but it doesn't become the default option.

EDIT: With regard to Waterbreathing ritual itself.

I think a perfect example would actually be today's preview, Glimmer

If you're going to Glimmer, you should ALREADY have this spell in place as it last long enough to cast beforehand.

What the 1e/2e and 4e magic system didn't allow for was to "forget to prepare" OR "mysteriously pushed through a portal to Glimmer"

 

[fuzzlewump]

Yeah. I agree.

Something like arcane lock to seal off a group is cool, but without that option, you can instead conjure something in the door's space, get the rogue to lock it with thievery, apply a padlock (can you buy them? *shrug*), get the fighter to put his back to it while he fights, get the barbarian to jam it, anybody and throw stuff in the way of the door, bar the door... I don't know. This could be an example of creativity stifled by having the perfect tool for the job, like arcane lock.

I'm glad it's termed the tyranny of fun instead of the tyranny of creativity. I'm so tired of creativity.

 

[Shazman]

Rituals are good in theory, but the overly long casting times and expense of rituals relegates them to little used obscurity. They are so useless in most situations that you tend to forget about them when they actually would be useful. This is another good example of a good idea that was ruined by it's horrible implementation.

 

[AllisterH]

Rituals are good in theory, but the overly long casting times and expense of rituals relegates them to little used obscurity. They are so useless in most situations that you tend to forget about them when they actually would be useful. This is another good example of a good idea that was ruined by it's horrible implementation.

Depends on the ritual. The time factor and the money are non issues since the latter goes away as you level and the ritual is STILL useful/becomes more useful and the time factor IS a balancing factor. (If the casting time was 10 rounds instead of 10 minutes, the people that think it would be too long would still state that it is too long)

Most of the scrying ones are simply not worth it however, but take the example of Waterbreathing.

WB costs 135 gp per 8 people and by the time you're using it to explore Glimmer that's pocket change AND it's probably lasting at least 4 hours.

That's GREAT bang for your buck IMO.

What rituals are is expensive when you first get them....not sure why since they could have done the other way of simply increasing the level (make Waterbreathing a level 13 ritual that costs 27 gp per application accomplishes the same thing)

 

[pawsplay]

(If the casting time was 10 rounds instead of 10 minutes, the people that think it would be too long would still state that it is too long)

What is your evidence for this? I have never seen anyone complain about a casting time in any edition that was one minute or less, except in the context of readied spells.