Falling off the 4ed bandwagon

[Wycen]

Usually it isn't a crime to not like something or to change your mind.

 

[Dice4Hire]

(Or maybe it's just that I put the most relentless edition warriors on ignore.)

Having 5-8 people there does help a lot, I would agree, which always makes me wonder how many I am on.....

 

[Shazman]

Just to add my 2 cents. I understand where the OP is coming from and share many of his sentiments. I have played a significant amount of LFR since last spring. I did it mainly to get my playing fix, since I had DMing duties for a while in my regualr gaiming group, and was itching to play instead of DM. In some ways it's a good way to get somewhat of a gaming fix for a while, but it doesn't seem conducive to long term gaming. One of the chief problems I have with 4E is the insane length of combats. I have recently started playing Pathfinder Society, and am amazed that you can finish a Pathfinder Society module in almost half the time that you can finish an LFR module for characters of the same level even though they are both supposed to take 4 hours to play through. In reality the the LFR modules take 6 or more hours to complete, while the PFS modules seem to take 3 1/2 to 4 hours. The main reason for this desparity is how long it takes to grind through 4E combat encounters even if the PCs have the upper hand through the whole encounter. I am also unimpressed with the blandness of magic items and powers. Magic items in 4E are anything but "magic". The lack of customization, even with the plethora of 4E classes and muticlassing feats, also gets under my skin. It may get better with the finalized hybrid rules in PHB3, but 3 PHB's is a long time to wait for a complete game. In short, find a game that fits your style the best, and change what you need to make it work for you.

 

[Azgulor]

Mercurius,

Apologies if this has been addressed already, but as I only have a few minutes before putting the kids to bed, I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread.

I've had system-indecision occasions myself. In my younger days, it was the search for the One True System. In more recent times, it was the "Which-Shiny-is-Right-for-Me" scenario.

All the advice that comes after has to pass through the following prism: Can I, as a DM/GM, have fun creating adventures & running this game? I know Conventional Wisdom places the players desires as most important but I call hogwash on that. If I'm the GM, I'm the one investing significant time outside of the game. Yes, there's the social aspect of hanging out with friends but I have a slew of choices aside from RPGing if that's the only objective. Personally, I can't run a campaign for a game that I don't like. I can play in one, but as a GM, if it's going to be a labor of love I have to at least like it.

Here's what I'd suggest:

1. Talk to your players. See if they feel the way you do. Are they indifferent to the issues you see or do they feel even more strongly about them you do?

2. Take a break from the campaign (not RPGs). Put the campaign on hold. Sometimes, it's just a mental block and the "Aha!" moment comes along while you're thinking about something completely unrelated.

3. Assuming that you have systems available or $$ to spend on some prime contenders, pick 1-3 alternatives. Run tournament-style one-shots with your players & kick the tires from a GM & a player perspective. If it's d20/level-based, don't start at Level 1. Try the mid-power levels. If that goes well, then scale down to low levels or up to high ones.

Don't guess, don't suffer, & don't settle. Perhaps Pathfinder only gets you 70% there. If it's more fun than 4e, you can build on that. Maybe Fantasycraft gets closer to the mark. Maybe you really "can't go back" and you appreciate the good in 4e more.

Ultimately, it's about having fun with friends in a creative endeavor. If the system can't satisfy those 3 (fun, friends, & creativity) for you as a GM, you're using the wrong system. If you're players are 4e diehards, you may have to settle for 2 out of 3. In my experience, however, settling sucks.

Good luck.

 

[Obryn]

I have never yet seen a game that did exactly what I wanted it to do from a mechanical perspective. Heck, I could build it myself and I'd still be retrofitting and changing things with each new campaign.

What seems silly to me is going on a quest for a perfect game that probably doesn't exist, instead of finding a game that's got 90% of what I want and fixing the other 10%.

I kinda-sorta agree with you.

IMO, the reason no game does exactly what I want it to is because I want mutually exclusive things, only all at once. I want the speed and flexibility of rules-light, but I want the tinkering and system mastery of rules-heavy. I want heavy RP, but I also want tons of die-rolling action. I want the constant danger of immediate death, but I want PCs to be robust. I want exotic classes and races, but I also want traditional swords & horses fantasy. I want magic swords, lightsabers, The Computer, vampire slayers, rat-catchers, giant robots, and mi-go.

I think the problem is that all of these are good things. I searched around for a game which could give me all of them, and came up understandably blank.

Which is why I recommended what I did. IMO, it's futile to try and find that one perfect game you can play forever. Instead, spread your wings - play lots of games. Don't settle on a single game, because you'll always end up missing something you want. Instead, try a lot of games, and treasure them for the things they do well. If they don't do something well, play some sessions in another game that does.

So yeah, that's my two cents. It's not about house-ruling until you make your perfect D&D. It's about accepting that there's no perfect game and branching out even wider, finding a few games that scratch your most important itches.

-O

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

• Play something else. This proves more problematic with the group as they may not want to. On the other hand, I'm not sure I want to either as I love Dungeons & Dragons, I'm just not crazy about any particular edition of it! All things considered I still like 4th edition the best, although the gap between it and Pathfinder is closing rather quickly (Not to mention I'm very intrigued by Trailblazer). Which leads me to...
• Create my own version, a self-proclaimed "5th edition" (aka, "fantasy heartbreaker"). I've kind of started doing this, and it almost seems like a natural progression for many serious DMs, especially as their interest in RPGs veers from "serious" to "hardcore." But I'm very curious about the proposition of combining my favorite elements of every edition of D&D, as well as Pathfinder, Fantasy Craft, True20, Trailblazer, and maybe others--and still being able to use published books.

You shouldn't DM something that your heart isn't in, so I say do one of these. If you're even a decent DM, your players should be happy with whatever system you prefer. And if not, one of your players can step up to the plate and run a campaign for you.

 

[Mercurius]

Lots of great responses—too many to reply to, so I’ll just focus on a few.

I've got to agree, here. Gamer default psychology makes powers into limitations, but the 4E rules explicitly provide ways to use them in whatever creative or free-form fashion one desires - it simply is a matter of getting people into the right mindset.

Similarly, magic items aren't less exciting than they were in the last edition - the problem is mainly that they look that way when presented without much background, alongside dozens of similar items. Either add more flavor, or fiddle with the items themselves to make them more exciting. (But be careful - I did just that, and realized that lots of fiddly little benefits from an item means lots of fiddly little bonuses that never get remembered or used.)

Yes and no. This reminds me of how my wife and I have moved a bunch of times in the ten years we've been together and never seem to settle into one spot for more than a year or two without getting antsy. On one hand we know that, to quote Ram Dass, "Wherever you go, there you are," meaning, you can't escape yourself and the primary factor in being happy in any place is internal, it is "the right mindset." But there are other factors, like the place itself. So it is a balance. On one hand, the main thing is how you use it, but on the other, what it is is important.

But I do agree that we have an enormous amount of freedom and power in optimizing what is before us, and in the context of 4ed--or any edition of D&D--this involves flavoring the soup how we like it. The deli factor might play into WotC: most delis under-salt food so that people can salt it to their own taste.

I'm certainly not saying you have to take this approach of course, or that there is any fault for not doing so - but I think a lot of the problems you have can be solved by house rules, which the system very much allows for. Maybe not the Character Builder, but that's a bonus tool on top of the system itself, not an enforcer of the rules. (And many of these issues can be dealt with without dealing with it at all.)

It is good advice that I agree with, which is why I'm dabbling with creating my own "D&D: Mercurius' Ultimate Edition."

Here are two different ways to approach description.

The first works like this: player decides on course of action -> description of action -> mechanical resolution -> description of outcome.

The second works like this: player decides on course of action -> mechanical resolution -> description of outcome.

In the first version the description of the action has an effect on the action's resolution; in the second it doesn't.

When you pull out Page 42 to "do something cool" you're using the first technique; when you use a Power, you're using the second.

Thanks Lost Soul, this is EXACTLY what I was trying to get at in terms of my problem with the Power system in 4E. Of course you can still use page 42, but the Powers make it easy not to. I’ve been trying to encourage my players to “do something cool” and I think Piratecat’s system will go a long way to helping that.

Bunk.

I was told this when I was dissatisfied with 3e, and for a while I bought it. I can even link to the post where I said so waaaayyyyy back when. But you know what? I started a project to retrofit the rules to the way I wanted to play, and the magic is as strong as it ever was. Stronger, even, because it is informed by decades of experience.

Find a game you want to play, or make the game be one you want to play.

Buy into "What you want is nostalgia anyway, and you can never recapture it" and it will become the truth.

On one level I agree with the nostalgia, or at least that it plays a major part. However, what you point at is what could be called the “deeper potential” of human imagination. A child’s imagination is awake and vital, while most adults’ are sleeping. Yet when an adult’s imagination wakes up and is taken seriously—is engaged in fully—it is truly a magical thing.

Beyond the Great Wall lies a Realm of Infinite Wonders…

Feeling frustrated, I've been reviewing old editions for what I like and don't like and have begun work on what I like to call "The Definitive Version of D&D" blending elements from several editions. It's still in early creation and is a ton of work.

Maybe we should start a support group!

No doubt! It sounds like we’re on the same page—we’ll have to compare our personal “Definite Versions of D&D.”

At the root of it, the differences you are talking about exist because the 4e designers' vision of D&D wasn't very expansive.

I’m surprised no one took up the points of your provocative, but excellent post.

I believe we play pnp RPGs because they are collaberation/imagination engines- they allow each participant to add his own intentions, interests, and experiences to the pool. The appeal of pnp RPGs is that the play experience is calibrated for the individual- he gets what he wants (be it power, fame, success, or freedom).

This is well put.

I think the thing that makes D&D unique, and is inherent to its nature is a feeling of fellowship, an adventurous spirit, and a sense of wonder.

The feeling of fellowship is usually derived from a sense of shared risk, and how differences among the individuals become a strength- the group can accomplish more than the individual.
The adventurous spirit is usually derived from how the PCs perceive themselves in respect to their world and environment. They don't know what lies around the corner or beyond the sunset- and they want to. Curiousity drives them. This aspect of D&D isn't something you can give players- you can only reward it.
The sense of wonder is derived from unreal experiences, new experiences, and the unknown. It's challenging old thinking, rewarding lateral thinking, and seeing things in a new light.

Again, really nicely put.

Taken in this light, D&D's emphasis on swords & sorcery, dragons & dungeons seems contrived. Fellowship doesn't have to be party-based, wonder can be found in a teacup, and an adventurous spirit is something that can be cultivated by challenging your preconceptions in any form.

Really, though, the reason 4e feels "off" is because the designers' intentions didn't account for these things. They confused D&D's subject matter with its purpose. They confused their own playstyles with some kind of universal constant. They narrowed its focus, limited its scope. You say 4e is "watered down". No, it's just very concentrated- but its a concentration of features you don't associate with your own experiences of D&D.

I might not feel quite as strongly as you do about this, but I think there is a lot of truth to what you say.

 

[Beginning of the End]

Really, though, the reason 4e feels "off" is because the designers' intentions didn't account for these things. They confused D&D's subject matter with its purpose. They confused their own playstyles with some kind of universal constant. They narrowed its focus, limited its scope. You say 4e is "watered down". No, it's just very concentrated- but its a concentration of features you don't associate with your own experiences of D&D.

This pretty much nails it.

To put a more positive spin on it: D&D was a game that scratched a lot of different itches for a lot of different people in a lot of different ways. The designers of 4th Edition picked a "sweet spot" and reworked the entire game to focus on that "sweet spot".

If it actually was your sweet spot, then the game is fantastic.

But if it wasn't your sweet spot, then 4th Edition is a complete disaster.

For example, look at the way classes play. WotC's designers are pretty upfront about the fact that they wanted to make all the different classes play in the same way. They did that very successfully... and in the process eliminated all the other ways of playing the game that lots of people used to enjoy.

 

[Hjorimir]

Someone somewhere (I don't think here at ENW, but I could be wrong) had a system drawn up of ways to spend the fate points in 4e. We tweaked them a bit, and a friend put them on a card he made - then he set up a 3x3 sheet of them to print and cut - I just asked him about it but it's at home otherwise i would post it.

Anyway, some of the options for using one include getting a +3 to attack for your daily, +2 to attack an encounter, +1 anything else (all AFTER having rolled). There were a few more things on there (not coming to mind atm)... maybe a re-roll... and possibly an extra action. To hideout was ever discussed before that, I just kind of wanted one all of a sudden... he could have denied me, but he also may have then given me another one. If you know the Aspect/Fate system you already have an idea of how it works, etc.

But, what it primarily get's used for is to do something cool - we kind of explain what we want to do in exchange for the fate point - DM decides whether or not to, or modifies the idea, "well, sure, but just this part of it... and you have to roll an Athletics check to land without falling prone" etc. As a DM I will accept one to auto-succeed just about any skill roll, and I am willing to break rules for cool effects. When players get excited about doing something cool and are willing to spend one, I'm pretty much down for whatever.

In my game, you get one 1 per session. They don't last to the next session if used, and you can get an additional 1 during the game for cool RP-ing or ideas, etc.

---edit---

As a player, I make sure I use one each game.

EX: We busted out of an Inn we rescued someone from. I play a goblin rogue, and knew the city best. We didn't know where to go, so I offered up the DM my fate point card and said, "I know JUST the place to hide! My little hideout!"... DM smiled and said, "yes you do" taking the card. I didn't have a hideout before that, it was never discussed - and he could have said, "no, that was in the other city" etc, but he also may have given me another FP for the idea then. I'm sure you understand that part of the system though (the bartering) - much fun

I follow. Thanks, weem.

 

[Markn]

I kinda-sorta agree with you.

IMO, the reason no game does exactly what I want it to is because I want mutually exclusive things, only all at once. I want the speed and flexibility of rules-light, but I want the tinkering and system mastery of rules-heavy. I want heavy RP, but I also want tons of die-rolling action. I want the constant danger of immediate death, but I want PCs to be robust. I want exotic classes and races, but I also want traditional swords & horses fantasy. I want magic swords, lightsabers, The Computer, vampire slayers, rat-catchers, giant robots, and mi-go.

I think the problem is that all of these are good things. I searched around for a game which could give me all of them, and came up understandably blank.

Which is why I recommended what I did. IMO, it's futile to try and find that one perfect game you can play forever. Instead, spread your wings - play lots of games. Don't settle on a single game, because you'll always end up missing something you want. Instead, try a lot of games, and treasure them for the things they do well. If they don't do something well, play some sessions in another game that does.

So yeah, that's my two cents. It's not about house-ruling until you make your perfect D&D. It's about accepting that there's no perfect game and branching out even wider, finding a few games that scratch your most important itches.

-O

And cake. Don't forget that you want to eat cake too!