Fantasy Concepts: An OGL Fantasy Saga Project

[tsadkiel]

Well, yes, and here's why: My hope is to not have racial special abilities at all, except in the form of feats and talents.

Jumping back several pages of conversation - I have a concern about races. I really like using feats and talents to build character races - it's one of the things I like about True20, actually. (Minus the talents, but you know what I mean.)

On the other hand, the reason why I like the approach in True20 is that it makes it easier to add new PC races. I like to tinker with settings, but don't really enjoy tinkering with mechanics. Am I going to have to right new talent trees if my setting includes nonstandard races?

 

[EditorBFG]

On the other hand, the reason why I like the approach in True20 is that it makes it easier to add new PC races. I like to tinker with settings, but don't really enjoy tinkering with mechanics. Am I going to have to right new talent trees if my setting includes nonstandard races?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: It depends. There is not a requirement that the system needs to give each race two bonus feats and a bonus talent. It is just how we're doing it. So, each race essentially has ability modifiers, and some racial abilities, as in D&D-- it is just that two of those racial abilities are free feats and one is talent tree access with a free talent. So, you could just handle races normally as in D&D-- not every race needs a talent tree, especially if their innate racial abilities do not lend themselves well to improvement. Treat the ability to attain a bonus feat or choose from a certain talent tree as just another racial ability, just like stonecunning or darkvision.

Now, if the above strikes you as too inelegant or asymmetrical, and you want all races to be standardized, you could just take the race's abilities and divide them up into one feat and one talent, and give them one free Trained Skill feat for an appropriate skill (most races have one skill or another that they receive a bonus with, so go with that). The one talent received for free at 1st level is the entire talent tree (there is no rule that every tree must contain more than one talent). When a character from that race goes up in levels, he just picks from his normal class talents, the same way a human does-- certainly there is no disadvantage in that. I bet most non-human characters will do that anyway. We are only including racial talent paths for people who want to specialize, ex: for an elf fighter to focus on being an elf instead of a fighter.

Now, I don't have the book in front of me, but as I recall from True20, for the most part adding a True20 race is a matter of picking out ability mods and bonus/favored feats for that race, and if you were converting some race with an ability not covered by a True20 feat, you had to make up a feat for that ability or they didn't get it. This is not a big departure from that.

BTW, what does everyone think of the term "Talent Path"? We prefer it to Talent Tree for Fantasy, because "Tree" sounds a bit Modern-- for me it conjures up some kind of logic diagram, like something they'd show me at a meeting in my office. Path makes it sound more like you're moving towards something, not just picking options.

 

[tsadkiel]

Now, I don't have the book in front of me, but as I recall from True20, for the most part adding a True20 race is a matter of picking out ability mods and bonus/favored feats for that race, and if you were converting some race with an ability not covered by a True20 feat, you had to make up a feat for that ability or they didn't get it. This is not a big departure from that.

Very true. The original version of the Lux Aeternum setting included "structural feats for somewhat more exotic abilities like flight, natural armor, or being unusually sized, and I exploited the heck out of them and often wished for more. As a consumer, I would love it if the book (is it still going to be called "Fantasy Concepts?") included a short appendix on PC race design, with a menu of sample talents.

BTW, what does everyone think of the term "Talent Path"? We prefer it to Talent Tree for Fantasy, because "Tree" sounds a bit Modern-- for me it conjures up some kind of logic diagram, like something they'd show me at a meeting in my office. Path makes it sound more like you're moving towards something, not just picking options.

Sounds good to me.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

Speaking of racial talents, I'd be keen on seeing more than one path per race being presented. For example, gnomes might have access to a Rock Gnome Path (illusion related abilities), Forest Gnome Path (nature related abilities), Deep Gnome Path (elemental earth related abilities), Crafter Gnome Path (gadgeteering related abilities), and Illuminatus Gnome Path (skulduggery related abilities). Allowing for this type of mixing and matching allows for some really neat options. Like the idea of fey-like gnomes? Use the Rock and Forest Gnome paths. Are the Nomes of Oz more to your liking? Use the Deep and Illuminatus Gnome paths.

 

[EditorBFG]

As a consumer, I would love it if the book (is it still going to be called "Fantasy Concepts?") included a short appendix on PC race design, with a menu of sample talents.

At the various least, I want the book (which, yes, I believe will still be fantasy Concepts) contain appendix of extra races, but if possible a race-creation guide would be nice. I really like the way a talent system erases the need for LA for most low-LA monsters. As an experiment, I decided to see how long it would take me to do Aasimar and Tieflings, and I came up with the following in a very short period of time:

Planetouched
Size: Medium.
Speed: Planetouched- base land speed is 30 feet.
Bonus Racial Feats: Preternatural Senses, Trained Skill (Knowledge(planes))
Planetouched Talents: You gain access to the Planetouched Talent Path. You receive a free talent from this Path at 1st level. Any time you receive a talent from a class, you may choose from the talents normally available to that class or from the Planetouched Talent Path.
Native Outsider: Plane-touched are considered outsiders, but are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). They can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
Subraces:
• Aasimar: These planetouched gain +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, -2 Strength. They must choose Celestial Blood as their free talent from the Planetouched Talent Path at 1st level. They may replace the 1st level bonus racial feat Trained Skill (Knowledge(planes)) with Trained Skill (Knowledge(religion)) if they wish.
• Tiefling: These planetouched gain +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. They must choose Fiendish Blood as their free talent from the Planetouched Talent Path at 1st level. They may replace the 1st level bonus racial feat Preternatural Senses with Trained Skill (Stealth) if they wish.

Planetouched Talent Path
Celestial Blood: The blood of an angel or other creature of the higher planes flows in your veins. You have darkvision, allowing you to see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and you can function just fine with no light at all. Also, you have the spell-like ability to cast daylight once per day. Finally, you gain resistance to acid 5, cold 5, and electricity 5.
Fiendish Blood: The blood of a demon, devil, or other creature of the lower planes flows in your veins. You have darkvision, allowing you to see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and you can function just fine with no light at all. Also, you have the spell-like ability to cast darkness once per day. Finally, you gain resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5.
Improved Resistance: One of the plane-touched character’s natural resistances to energy from the celestial blood talent (acid, cold, or electricity) or fiendish blood talent (cold, electricity, or fire) improves from 5 to 10. The character can choose which of her three resistances improves. This talent can be taken up to three times; each time it improves a different one of her existing natural resistances from celestial or fiendish blood.
Prerequisite: Celestial blood or fiendish blood
Improved Darkness: You may use your spell-like ability to cast darkness up to 3 times a day.
Prerequisite: Fiendish blood
Improved Daylight: You may use your spell-like ability to cast daylight up to 3 times a day.
Prerequisite: Celestial blood
Celestial Potential: You gain a permanent +2 to Strength.
Prerequisites: Character level 3, celestial blood.
Fiendish Potential: You gain a permanent +2 to Dexterity.
Prerequisites: Character level 3, fiendish blood.

Something like this could be done for drow, or whoever.

Speaking of racial talents, I'd be keen on seeing more than one path per race being presented.

I think subraces have to go in, no matter what. But I am uncertain whether to have separate paths or one big gnome path. My preliminary gnome write-up includes rock gnomes, forest gnomes, and svirfneblin in one path, based on the idea that the different racial capabilities represent innate potential that any gnome could develop with time and effort. Do people think that makes sense, or no?

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

EditorBFG:

Don't separate base attack bonuses into two varieties - that would be highly confusing, and negate many of the simplifications in the system. Besides, if you were going to do that, you ought to make it a combat attack and a magical attack, one overcoming Reflex defense, the other overcoming whichever defense is relevant to the spell.

On the rogue sneak attack question, I reckon you should make the talent grow in power with rogue levels, until a maximum. Say, 1-3d6 with one talent, then 4-6d6, then 7-9d6. One thing I was confused about in Saga was why they bothered to include it - the scoundrel's 'dodgy attack' or whatever it's called that knocks you down one on the condition track seems much more appropriate to the rogue ability. Simply ramp it up to allow you to knock someone down 2 steps, then 3 steps (never affect the same person twice in a combat to limit power though). Getting that last ability at say, level 10 is nice, giving the fighter a -5 to attacks is harsh. Don't forget to make it affect whatever roll you're using for magical attacks to beat defenses. Heck, a 15th level 4-step hit wouldn't be too overpowered given how easy it would be to heal at that level.. I like this idea more and more..

I like 'Talent Tree' for the alliteration. Path does sound more fantasy though. Trees are quite druidic mind you..

Finally, put all the racial talents in one path, let people develop them as they choose. Your planetouched example is superb.

 

[Flynn]

Finally, put all the racial talents in one path, let people develop them as they choose. Your planetouched example is superb.

In some ways, doing so might be something like the old Player Options book back at the end of the 2nd Edition glory days. I like it, as it allows the DM to customize through exclusion, if so desired, and there doesn't need to be a proliferation of Talent Paths in just the racial section alone.

I want to make sure there are options for character creation. However, I am aware of the dangers of having too many options. A weird sort of paralysis can set in on the newbie player who becomes overwhelmed by the vast range of their choices, thus slowing character creation down. Finding that nice middle ground is a juggling act of sorts.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Baron Opal]

So I think it might be interesting to entertain the possibility of giving characters two base attack bonuses: one for Str-modified attacks and one for Dex-modified attacks.

An interesting idea, but I would rather have it as a feat / talent choice. That way you have the generalist whose BAB is modified by the weapon (and thus attribute) at hand and the specialists who have focussed their skill (BAB) into power weapons or precision weapons.

 

[Flynn]

An interesting idea, but I would rather have it as a feat / talent choice. That way you have the generalist whose BAB is modified by the weapon (and thus attribute) at hand and the specialists who have focussed their skill (BAB) into power weapons or precision weapons.

One of the ways I dealt with something like this was to create a talent in my Tome of Talents inspired by one of the class abilities of a prestige class from Librum Equitus. That class had medium BAB, but granted a +1 bonus to ranged attacks at appropriate levels to approximate a good BAB with ranged weapons. The talent tree in question did the same thing.

Something like that might be useful for capturing the kind of feel of Finessable/Power attackers. However, I do feel that such is outside the scope of this particular project.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

A weird sort of paralysis can set in on the newbie player who becomes overwhelmed by the vast range of their choices, thus slowing character creation down. Finding that nice middle ground is a juggling act of sorts.

But will this product really be for newbies? I think only people already familiar with D&D and Saga will look into it.