Fantasy Concepts: An OGL Fantasy Saga Project

[EditorBFG]

Flynn and I just wanted to let everyone know that we've reached an agreement to release this product as a collaboration between Samardan Press and Big Finger Games. Flynn and I will be working together closely to ensure the smoothest possible interaction between our two organizations. For my part, I am thrilled to be part of a joint effort that reflects the spirit of cooperation EN World has done so much to create in the world-wide RPG community.

And while I'm announcing things, I'd like to express my gratitude to everyone who continues to participate in this discussion, it is much appreciated. Please, keep the input and ideas flowing. Your observations are invaluable-- even (especially) when I disagree!

 

[Dalamar]

Some thoughts on the topic, feel free to ignore them:

Do include Forc- uh, Action Points from Unearthed Arcana, especially in being used to fuel special abilities. Smite? That's an Action Point. Turn Undead? Another Action Point. Abilities that might see heavy use in a single tough encounter but no use in some encounters that were previously per day or similar could, in my opinion, be reconfigured to work on Action Points. This has the added benefit of also moving anything that previously required a Turn Undead/Stunning Fist/etc. use to be able to stand on its own if desired.
Personally, I like the separation of Noble, Scout and Scoundrel as different types of skill characters with different specializations available through talents. I also like the separation of divine and arcane magic, though not necessarily mechanically. I don't mind both types of magic using exactly same rules or even exactly same spell lists, but separate classes with different talents is what I'd hope to see.
And, while we're on the topic of magic, I also like the "everyone's an adept" design of Star Wars Saga. Basic tricks available to all characters with magical aptitude with more advanced tricks available through feats and talents that members of all classes can take make for a nice system.
Damage. Saga weapons generally deal more damage than DnD weapons. When balancing all weapons against each other, also make sure that they're "good enough". What I mean is that weapons shouldn't have too hard a time exceeding Damage Treshold, and similar considerations.
Magic Items are an integral part of being DnD. That doesn't mean that one can not get creative with them. Who says a flaming sword has to add fire damage, maybe it just turns the extra damage a character deals based on level to fire damage? Similarly, not all uses of Use Magic Device need to be Trained Only. Perhaps scrolls are always activated with a Use Magic Device check, but you can only attempt the check if you have the correct magic aptide or are trained in the skill?

That's all I could think of to ramble for the moment, but I'll be following along the topic to see if something else pops in my mind or I notice anything worth commenting on.

 

[Flynn]

Flynn and I just wanted to let everyone know that we've reached an agreement to release this product as a collaboration between Samardan Press and Big Finger Games. Flynn and I will be working together closely to ensure the smoothest possible interaction between our two organizations. For my part, I am thrilled to be part of a joint effort that reflects the spirit of cooperation EN World has done so much to create in the world-wide RPG community.

And while I'm announcing things, I'd like to express my gratitude to everyone who continues to participate in this discussion, it is much appreciated. Please, keep the input and ideas flowing. Your observations are invaluable-- even (especially) when I disagree!

I, too, am excited about this collaboration project, and I definitely think the synergy will help us bring out the best for your gaming pleasure! Please continue to make your suggestions and contributions. They definitely help!

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Flynn]

Do include Forc- uh, Action Points from Unearthed Arcana, especially in being used to fuel special abilities. Smite? That's an Action Point. Turn Undead? Another Action Point. Abilities that might see heavy use in a single tough encounter but no use in some encounters that were previously per day or similar could, in my opinion, be reconfigured to work on Action Points. This has the added benefit of also moving anything that previously required a Turn Undead/Stunning Fist/etc. use to be able to stand on its own if desired.

Ever since Grim Tales, I've always been a big fan of using action points to activate abilities that used to be measured in 'per day' increments. Some might feel that it is inappropriate, but I think it gives you control over what you want to do. You must weigh what you are giving up when you use an action point for any reason, and so it gives action points that extra investment into the overall system.

I also enjoy 'per session' allotments on Action Points, ala Grim Tales and Spycraft, and I think that addresses the concerns I've seen in Saga about 20th level characters and their limited AP pool... after all, when their APs are gone, how do they get them back? There are no epic rules of play there. Rather than hit that kind of problem, or see similar problems pop up due to a preference for slow advancement, I think that it's just better, IMO, to refresh APs per session.

YMMV, Of Course,
Flynn

 

[Nine Hands]

Ever since Grim Tales, I've always been a big fan of using action points to activate abilities that used to be measured in 'per day' increments. Some might feel that it is inappropriate, but I think it gives you control over what you want to do. You must weigh what you are giving up when you use an action point for any reason, and so it gives action points that extra investment into the overall system.

I also enjoy 'per session' allotments on Action Points, ala Grim Tales and Spycraft, and I think that addresses the concerns I've seen in Saga about 20th level characters and their limited AP pool... after all, when their APs are gone, how do they get them back? There are no epic rules of play there. Rather than hit that kind of problem, or see similar problems pop up due to a preference for slow advancement, I think that it's just better, IMO, to refresh APs per session.

YMMV, Of Course,
Flynn

Or snag a role playing mechanic from True 20, which is what I did for regaining Force Points (or Action Points in D&D). Basically you have two natures (one good and one bad). When you role play towards one of these natures, you gain a Force Point back. This allows for players to rebuild their pool of points AND gives them easy to use role playing guidelines.

Since you want to use Action Points frequently, you might want to consider gaining more of them each time you act according to your nature.

Again just a suggestion

 

[Mokona]

Advanced Character Class

Congratulations, to all, on the agreed cooperation between Samardan Press and Big Finger Games for this project.

Following the Saga guidelines, Advanced classes are not available until 7th character level, and Prestige classes are not available until 12th character level.

First question, though: Are advanced and prestige classes needed for the game?

Yes they should be included; I love advanced and prestige classes. The books presented prestige classes have been, by far and away, the best selling books produced by Wizards of the Coast for Dungeons & Dragons. Thus I'm not alone in my love. If you count kits (which I assume prestige classes are meant to "recreate" :\) it's even true about AD&D 2nd Edition.

In my perfect world advanced classes would be available at 4th level and prestige classes would be available at 10th level. This would be perfect for the Paladin solution suggested earlier because Paladins get spells at 4th level. So leaving the Warrior base class to become Warrior 3/Paladin 1 would be the perfect point to give you spells.

I'd be disappointed if my character couldn't become a Paladin until 7th level. All of the D&D system games I play in end at 10th level (including D20 Modern games). The rules just aren't fun above that range. Evidence repeatedly shows that most characters end their career between levels 9-12. Perhaps Saga rules alleviate this problem and game play will continue into the teen levels but I won't believe that until I see it demonstrated in practice.

Mokona's rules of "good" advanced class design...

1. Entry requirements for advanced classes should be small. To enter an advanced class at the earliest level possible a character should need to dedicate no more than half of their feats and no more than half of their talents to requirements.

2. Core advanced classes (like Paladin) should use requirements for flavor reasons and not for balance (taking lame feats that no one wants, in order to "bank up" the power you could have gotten out of decent feat choices, isn't fun).

3. Characters should be able to qualify for advanced and prestige classes early. You want to "reach" your character concept (assuming your target class helps you portray your ideal) sooner than later. Also see my comment that games end around 10th level as noted above.

4. At least two (2) basic classes should be able to reach <edit>each</edit> core advanced classes without multiclassing. At least one of those classes should be able to move into the advanced class at the earliest possible level. The other basic class should be no more than one level behind. So if a Warrior can move into Paladin after 3rd level (say +3 base attack bonus required) then a Cleric should be able to move into Paladin after 4th level. In no way should a core class like Paladin require you to be a multiclass Warrior/Cleric in order to take the advanced class at the earliest possible level.

Parts of that last rule of thumb work better if there are six basic classes (Warrior, Scout, Scoundrel, Noble, Cleric, and Mage) than if there are only four (Fighter, Thief, Cleric, and Wizard).

 

[tsadkiel]

Here's a thought about classes and "Wilderness Guy." Characters with wilderness skills are certainly a feature in fantasy, but it seems to be more of a flavor than a niche to me. The scout is skillful and stealthy, but in the woods. The druid calls upon divine power, but in the woods. The ranger fights, but in the woods.

Before Saga was released, there was a lot of speculation about talent trees that were not tied to a particular class. The Force and Tradition talent trees turned out to be the only examples in the published book, but it occurs to me that if there were a wilderness talent tree it could be applied to a fighter to make a ranger, or a priest to make a druid, or an expert to make a scout, or a noble to make . . . some kind of woodsy noble, I guess. Similarly, a nautical talent tree could be used to produce pirates and ship's captains and sea witches.

 

[Mokona]

Smite? That's an Action Point. Turn Undead? Another Action Point.

I like the separation of Noble, Scout and Scoundrel as different types of skill characters with different specializations available through talents.

I don't mind both types of magic using exactly same rules or even exactly same spell lists, but separate classes with different talents is what I'd hope to see.

And, while we're on the topic of magic, I also like the "everyone's an adept" design of Star Wars Saga.

Who says a flaming sword has to add fire damage, maybe it just turns the extra damage a character deals based on level to fire damage?

I agree with all these ideas. If Smite and Turn Undead use action points they'll need to be more powerful. Perhaps you can Smite after you know if you hit and you automatically turn undead without a skill check? Presumably you had to spend a slot (feat or talent) on the special ability and you need an action point to power it as well. More cost (feat + consumable resource) = more powerful results.

With the addition of the condition track lots of magic items that previously improved damage can alternatively do something more creative now.

 

[EditorBFG]

Congratulations, to all, on the agreed cooperation between Samardan Press and Big Finger Games for this project.

Thanks, we're very happy with it.

Mokona's rules of "good" advanced class design...

1. Entry requirements for advanced classes should be small. To enter an advanced class at the earliest level possible a character should need to dedicate no more than half of their feats and no more than half of their talents to requirements.

2. Core advanced classes (like Paladin) should use requirements for flavor reasons and not for balance (taking lame feats that no one wants, in order to "bank up" the power you could have gotten out of decent feat choices, isn't fun).

3. Characters should be able to qualify for advanced and prestige classes early. You want to "reach" your character concept (assuming your target class helps you portray your ideal) sooner than later. Also see my comment that games end around 10th level as noted above.

4. At least two (2) basic classes should be able to reach core advanced classes without multiclassing. At least one of those classes should be able to move into the advanced class at the earliest possible level. The other basic class should be no more than one level behind. So if a Warrior can move into Paladin after 3rd level (say +3 base attack bonus required) then a Cleric should be able to move into Paladin after 4th level. In no way should a core class like Paladin require you to be a multiclass Warrior/Cleric in order to take the advanced class at the earliest possible level.

I think these are all good guidelines. I think I am coming around to the idea of advanced classes (available around level 3) and Prestige Classes (available around 7th and higher) being a big part of the game.

That said, I also think the base classes themselves should be few, and separated by mechanics (good attack bonus, good skill guy, good saves, or good caster) rather than flavor. The flavor should come from the talents. Advanced classes should be mechanically better, but not much, and easy to qualify for. Prestige classes ought to be tough, though, and specific rather than generic (Paladin=Advanced Class, Knight of the Round Table=Prestige Class). Every base class ought to have at least one Advanced Class it can achieve with no multiclassing at all.

 

[Acid_crash]

One other OGL magic system that you can mine is True Sorcery, which could be adapted to a Fantasy Saga game.