Fantasy Concepts: An OGL Fantasy Saga Project

[EditorBFG]

I think that would be perfect for the racial prestige classes (paragon?). If you want to be more elvish, take levels in this 3 level class and you can be as elfly as you want.

I think we have a fix that includes every good thing about the paragon classes, but still lets you stick with a single class. Flynn and I just emailed back and forth on it, and it is pretty neat. What I like about paragons is that they reflect D&D's sources-- elves are cool, but Legolas is more elven in some ways, and more cool. So, the option of becoming more focused on your race's abilities will be available.

 

[EditorBFG]

Quick Analysis of tendencies in Saga for such classes:

Advanced Classes (7th level)
Prerequisites: 1-2 talents, 1-2 trained skills, sometimes limited feat requirements, 7th level
Defense Bonuses: Total +6, in +2/+4 increments.
10 levels: Alternating talent and class-related special bonus, or talent every level progression
Two talent trees

Prestige Classes (12th level)
Prerequisites: 1-2 talents from advanced classes, feat requirements, 12th level
Defense Bonuses: Total +9, in +3/+6 increments.
5 levels: 2 special abilities at 1st level, Talent on odd levels (1st, 3rd, 5th) from other talent trees, class-related special bonus every level
No unique talent trees

I think this is a fair analytical starting point for PrCs. But, I think these should be the two basic templates of Prestige Classes, while what we call Advanced Classes should be available at level 3, like Modern Advanced Classes. That way, you can be a Paladin early, but be on the path from the beginning.

 

[Mokona]

When I first thought about this I was going to use the d20 Modern background system to smooth out the D&D races directly.

I've seen how the D20 Modern system of occupations can be abused (with all the unnamed skill bonus in modern classes). Still, done right, you're idea sounds good. I would make it too good because we'll all get really bored of the 99th half-orc or human who was "raised by elves". Perhaps a synergy bonus if you race is the same as your "raised by" culture.

Arcana Unearthed and Unearthed Arcana racial levels also help. When Savage Species came out I really wanted to stat up 3rd edition Elf and Dwarf as 20 level character classes (along the lines of the beginning Basic D&D options).

Most racial abilities aren't all that exciting as class abilities if you receive them instead of a Talent or Feat. I wouldn't be too excited by Stonecunning or the bonuses to Appraise and Craft checks (Appraise should really be a feature of the underlying craft skill you're inspecting).

Goblin: -2 Str, +2 Dex, Small, Spd 4, Darkvision, Sneaky, Conditional Bonus Feat (Ride)
Halfling: -2 Str, +2 Dex, Small, Spd 4, Sneaky, Conditional Bonus Feat (Acrobatics), Perceptive, +1 to defenses
Hobgoblin: +2 Con, Spd 6, Darkvision, Sneaky, Conditional Bonus Feat (Stealth)
Kobold: -4 Str, +2 Dex, Small, Spd 6, Darkvision, Perceptive, +2 Fort defense, Light sensitive
Orc: +2 Str, -2 Int, Spd 6, Darkvision, Light sensitive, Conditional Bonus Feat (Survival), Scent

Are any of the Eberron character races open yet?

 

[EditorBFG]

Are any of the Eberron character races open yet?

Nope. But if your thinking of the Warforged, there is something similar Mike Mearls wrote up in Book of Iron Might called the Ironborn. I don't know Eberron very well, and I haven't looked at Book of Iron Might recently. Could the OGC Ironborn fill the Warforged niche?

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I think that, if you wanted, you could optionally and probably safely drop the Threshold vs Condition Track in your combats, and still be okay using Condition Tracks to replace all those extra conditions that have sprung up in 3E and v3.5. I think it needs to be in the Fantasy Concepts project, but all told, what you do with it once it's in your hands is up to you.

I've had a more in depth read. Now I think it's awesome. In fact, for D&D I'd go as far as using it for nearly everything that previously caused headaches. Would it be a stretch to make the condition track go 'out the other side' into positive bonuses? I'm thinking that you cast Bless and move one step up. The party bard equivalent starts inspiring you all and you move another step up. I guess you could really buff someone to the max and throw in a Heroism and er.. not sure I can think of another all-round buff to reach the precious +10 to everything.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Thanks, we're very happy with it.I think these are all good guidelines. I think I am coming around to the idea of advanced classes (available around level 3) and Prestige Classes (available around 7th and higher) being a big part of the game.

That said, I also think the base classes themselves should be few, and separated by mechanics (good attack bonus, good skill guy, good saves, or good caster) rather than flavor. The flavor should come from the talents. Advanced classes should be mechanically better, but not much, and easy to qualify for. Prestige classes ought to be tough, though, and specific rather than generic (Paladin=Advanced Class, Knight of the Round Table=Prestige Class). Every base class ought to have at least one Advanced Class it can achieve with no multiclassing at all.

Emphasis mine. I really like the +1 per lvl to saves in Saga. To start using D&D save progressions would be a step back, IMO. However, if you mean class bonus better than other classes' starting bonus, I think it has merit.

As have been said above, I would be careful about letting advanced classes be mechanically better than core classes. No one will stay in core classes, then.
Also, I think d20 Modern blew it by having broad base classes with some choice, and then adding advanced classes with fixed class abilities. They should just have made fixed base classes then I think Grim Tales is way superior in this regard. So I would say you guys should make sure that advanced (and PrCs) classes still have plenty of choice.

BTW, a line or to about how you design the advanced and PrCs would be a great addition to the game. Please include this in the product.

I am strongly in favor of an athletics skill, covering swim, ride, climb, and all the other physical skills no one otherwise will bother with. Just make sure some things are only possible if you're trained in the skill, the way Saga has handled many other tropes of D&D (Track).

I have always been in favor of per session Action Points. I think there was some document that described how many APs to give out when they're not per level? Living Greyhawk?
Anyway, will it be exploding APs like Grim Tales/Spycraft, or keep highest as in Saga?

Also, how about a 'core ability' as in Spycraft? Or True20. I have a few ideas in that regard, which I could post if there is interest.


BTW: Chris Nightwing. I like that positive condition chart
More as I think of it.

 

[Flynn]

I've had a more in depth read. Now I think it's awesome. In fact, for D&D I'd go as far as using it for nearly everything that previously caused headaches. Would it be a stretch to make the condition track go 'out the other side' into positive bonuses? I'm thinking that you cast Bless and move one step up. The party bard equivalent starts inspiring you all and you move another step up. I guess you could really buff someone to the max and throw in a Heroism and er.. not sure I can think of another all-round buff to reach the precious +10 to everything.

I'd have to consider the implications, but that does sound like a very interesting idea...

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[HeinorNY]

I think we have a fix that includes every good thing about the paragon classes, but still lets you stick with a single class. Flynn and I just emailed back and forth on it, and it is pretty neat. What I like about paragons is that they reflect D&D's sources-- elves are cool, but Legolas is more elven in some ways, and more cool. So, the option of becoming more focused on your race's abilities will be available.

What about creating racial talent trees?

Elven Talent Tree:

Surefooted: You can reroll your acrobatic checks and keep the better result.

Fair: Elves are the fairest of all the humanoids. They can use Persuasion skill to change the attitude of another creature as a swift action.

Sense Magic: You can cast Detect Magic at will. Prerequisite: caster level 3+.

Elven Agility: You gain +2 bonus to your Dexterity ability. Prerequisite: Surefooted.

Sword Specialization: You choose between longsword or rapier. When attacking that weapon you gain +2 to damage rolls. Prerequiste: Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

Bow Specialization: You choose between Longbow, Shortbow, Composite Longbow or Composite Shortbow. When attacking that weapon you gain +2 to damage rolls. Prerequisite: Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

 

[EditorBFG]

What about creating racial talent trees?

Funny you should mention that, because that is what we did! We were going back and forth about whether it should be posted up here, but here it is.

Basically, when you pick a race, you get a free talent from its tree at 1st level, and then as you go up in levels you decide whether or not to spend your talent slots from classes on racial talents. So it's like a paragon class, but you don't have to multiclass, you just have to choose to forego some class talents.

Elf Talent Path
Unclouded Vigilance: You gain a +2 focus bonus to Fortitude Defense and Will Defense against enchantment spells or effects. Further, you are immune to sleep effects.
Preternatural Senses: You gain the Preternatural Senses feat, regardless of whether or not you meet the prerequisites.
Eternal Vigilance: You may reroll any Perception roll once, but must keep the second result. In addition, you ignore concealment (but not total concealment) due to darkness.
Prerequisite: Unclouded vigilance
Improved Vigilance: Your focus bonus to Fortitude Defense and Will Defense against enchantment spells or effects increases to from +2 to +4.
Prerequisite: Unclouded vigilance
Elvish Weapon: Provided you meet the prerequisites, you gain the feat Weapon Focus. This feat must apply to either the rapier, longsword, shortsword, shortbow, longbow, composite shortbow, or composite longbow.
Prerequisites: Any 2 other talents from this Path
Ancient Knowledge: You gain a permanent +2 to Intelligence.
Prerequisites: Character level 3, any 2 other talents from this Path

What do you think?

I know the talent that gives a stat boost might be a bit controversial, but this is taken from the existing paragon class. Also, we think a structure like this might allow us to bring in some formerly Level Adjusted races, letting them start on par with a regular character and then grow into their Monster version stat modifiers.

 

[HeinorNY]

What do you think?

Dunno. I think instead of buying Elvish Weapon I would just get Weapon Focus, since I believe characters gain more feats than talents and the prerequisite is just +1 attack bonus.
Spending a talent to buy a feat is not good business. Maybe the Talent could let the PC choose one of the elven weapons and receive a +1 racial bonus to attack rolls. It would stack with Weapon Focus bonus, but not qualify the PC for Weapon Specialization.

Also, I think some of the Talents are standard Elven special abilities, considering a direct conversion of the races to the SAGA mechanics.
Take a look at this thread, some guys (myself included) made some racial conversions.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=873983

What you could do is to give all elves the roll-again-get-second-result to Perception checks, and then the Talent would give the roll-again-keep-better-result mechanic.