FAQ Update 29/10

[Hypersmurf]

The buckler/somatic component question is addressed in another thread.

I notice the flubbed Weapon Finesse question from last update has been corrected

But these two puzzle me:

The vigor series of spells (found in Complete Divine)
raise an interesting question. Does the built-in maximum
duration of each spell limitation override the effect of the
Extend Spell feat?

Yes. Extend Spell still increases the spell’s duration, but
only up to a maximum of the spell’s listed maximum duration.
Use either the normal maximum duration or the doubled
duration, whichever is less. If a 7th-level druid used Extend
Spell on her vigor spell, the duration could not increase beyond
25 rounds.

and

The mass lesser vigor spell has a fixed range (of 20 feet),
which makes it eligible for the revised Persistent Spell feat
in Player's Guide to Faerûn. Does that mean a 17th-level
druid could use a 9th-level spell slot to give nine creatures
fast healing 1 for 24 hours, or does the built-in limit of 25
rounds make that pointless?

Unlike Extend Spell, Persistent Spell replaces a spell’s normal
duration with a new duration of 24 hours. In this case, the
effect overrides the normal maximum duration of the spell, so it
would indeed grant nine creatures fast healing 1 for 24 hours (a
pretty reasonable effect for a 9th-level spell).

I could understand either of those answers... but not both.

Either the duration line of the spell includes the parenthetical maximum - in which case it is doubled by Extend Spell and overwritten by Persistent Spell - or it does not - in which case Extend Spell doubled the duration (limited to 25 rounds), and Persistent Spell makes it 24 hours (limited to 25 rounds).

I can't see how it can be argued the Extend sees the limit, but Persistent doesn't...

Thoughts?

-Hyp.

 

[Darren]

Wait until next time and see if they clarify like they did for power weapon finesse specialization?

It's bad when you have to errata the faq...

 

[sfedi]

I see those spells mildly broken.

Because they increse the amount of hit point you can cure with a 1st level spell, for example (of course, at the expense of time).
Now, I find a CLW Wand almost useless, I'd rather have a Wand of Vigor (Lvl 1). IME CLW is used out of combat, BTW.

These spells seem to include a new kind of effect or rule, thus, bringing up new problems.

The one you point out is a new one.
Although not a terrible one, IMO.

The main difference seems to be based in that Extend Spell increases the spell duration, where Persistent Spell replaces the spell duration.

Does it make more sense?

 

[Liquidsabre]

Yea I can see that. Doesn't matter what the duration is for the spell as long as it meets the requirements to be persisted. The duration is then replaced by 24h. Extend doubles the duration of the spell (whatever that happens to be) but only up to it's maximum (if there is a max).

 

[sfedi]

Keeping thinking about this...

what's so cheesy about doubling the spells duration?

It uses a slot higher.
Maybe the spell is broken in the first place.

I wonder why wouldn't they just put a cap on the spell caster level, as all other spells...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Extend doubles the duration of the spell (whatever that happens to be) but only up to it's maximum (if there is a max).

But the maximum is included in the duration line, and should be doubled by the Extend spell feat.

If the maximum were in the spell text, rather than in the duration line, I could see how it would still apply, since it would not be touched by the feat (though then the maximum would also still apply een when using Persistent Spell). But since it's in the duration line, it should be doubled by the feat...

-Hyp.

 

[Diirk]

So since Dancing Lights has a duration of 1 minute, with no level based variable etc, an Extended Dancing Lights also lasts 1 minute? heh.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So since Dancing Lights has a duration of 1 minute, with no level based variable etc, an Extended Dancing Lights also lasts 1 minute? heh.

It seems like Andy Collins would say that no, it lasts 2 minutes... but if Dancing Lights said:

Duration: 1 minute (maximum 1 minute)

... then it would only last a minute Extended... but that a Persistent Dancing Lights (assuming it were possible) would work normally, 24 hours.

... which seems odd.

-Hyp.

 

[Diirk]

Having just looked up the Vigor line now, I can see the difference.. I've never seen a stated maximum duration like that in a spell before. Hmm..

Applying a second vigor spell of equal level extends the first spell's duration by the full duration of the second spell.

So would this be capped at the maximum too? Thats seems counter intuitive, but if it isn't, then why is extend ?

 

[cordell]

yeah, that's just ... silly.

I mean, he is basically saying "this spell is so powerful we can't let Extend spell work on it", but then he also says "but Persistent spell is fine".

If this is the case, then one of the 3 elements is broken...the spell itself (too powerful), the Extend Spell feat (undercosted), or the persistent spell feat (overcosted).