Farewell to thee D&D

[Imaro]

Just because you perceive something doesn't mean it's there. I play WOW, and I play 4E. The two games, as I play them, have absolutely zero similarities. If your 4E game is a series of grinding quests and lame narration, with the exhilirating feeling of crushing another player in PvP as its only redeeming value, then I would posit that it is not 4E that sucks; it's your DM.

PS: You made a lot of weak assumptions on the person you replied to based on post count. That's not safe.

Emphasis: Doesn't that apply equally to both sides of the argument?

I mean really...

Grinding Quests: Funny how "D&D is at it's heart a game about killing things and taking there stuff" when anyone mentions the non-combat abilities that have been removed from 4e... but when compared to WoW suddenly it's not...ok.

Lame Narration: Ever read some of the modules for D&D?

PvP: This too can happen in a D&D game.

From your post above I'm just not seeing that far of a stretch.

No, its a fair characterization. Such "power distributions" do not exist. There is only "Wizards" and "everyone else aspiring to be a wizard" and it occurs slightly after the game starts. And every single time someone comes in complaining how the game now sucks, they end up saying "yea, i'm playing a wizard". There is a reason for this. And its because wizards were terribly overpowered and now, when players are being told that they can't be better than everyone else at the table.

Is it any wonder people don't come in and say "I like playing a fighter, and 4e is terrible. I loved taking a back seat to my friends and standing in front of them while they killed the monsters and won the day, now i am actually useful and it sucks!"?

In 4e characters are valuable in different situations doing different things. Roles explain where this is. It offers you more flexibility in your character fluff and direction, it offers all players to be valuable in different ways in different instances.

All of the objections end up boiling down to "I like playing a wizard and am disappointed that i cannot fill all roles in a party now" and the answer needs to be the same every time. "I am sorry, but other people are important too."

This of course isn't even getting into the point that Jensun bring up. That wizards in literature generally play like NPCs.

I thought the Cleric or Druid was the most powerful class in D&D 3.x... what's up with that?

On a more serious note, is the Wizard like this at low or mid-levels? If not then I don't think it's always... the WIzard and everybody else. Is he the most powerful if he doesn't have the right spell in the right situation? Or if he runs out of spells in the wrong place at the wrong time? Just saying.

 

[El Mahdi]

Gamers create divisions, not games.

This, along with ProfessorCirno, are the best, most sane things said in this thread. Thank you guys.

 

[Greylock]

Anyone who complains that they cannot play D&D because they cannot find a group, while posting on an internet website, is ignoring the HUGE number of options there are out there.

Say what?

Posting on the internet isn't a "real" conversation, like the ones I had this afternoon when I went by the hobby shop for two hours and talked to my real life friends. It's real, it's communication, but it's not a real conversation.

I played D&D for years, then I quit. Then I rediscovered roleplaying through computer games. Then late one night, I decided that while I liked my internet friends [and still keep up with folks I used to game online with], I wanted to sit at a table with real people, having real interactions, shoulder to shoulder looking each other in the eye, hearing the inflections, etc. Or for that matter, getting together on a NON-game day and having a beer and hot dog. I quit online gaming, and hooked up with some great folks [see story hour in my prior post].

Playing online, while nice, is NOT some magical modern day equivalent to a real live gaming group, and frankly, I'm sick of the snide suggestions that I, the one who insists on getting together socially in real life, am the one that has some gaming ability malfunction. I've gamed online. It's not the same.

hth

 

[El Mahdi]

Say what?

I don't think Hussar was speaking strictly about online gaming, but he can speak for himself when he gets back online. For myself I would say, if you found ENWorld, and post here, you can find local people in your area from this site and many other sites on the internet. WoTC has a limited game finder, Meetup.com has game meetups, and that's just scratching the surface. A couple minute google search could find even more. If someone can't find a group, with all of the assets of the internet, then they are either in a remote area that literally has no games, or can't find a group that suits them. That is very much not "there are no groups".

 

[Goumindong]

I thought the Cleric or Druid was the most powerful class in D&D 3.x... what's up with that?

On a more serious note, is the Wizard like this at low or mid-levels? If not then I don't think it's always... the WIzard and everybody else. Is he the most powerful if he doesn't have the right spell in the right situation? Or if he runs out of spells in the wrong place at the wrong time? Just saying.

Pretty much yes, the wizard starts declaring "I win" with first level spells.

 

[Hussar]

Greylock - when you say, "I played games online" what do you mean? Do you mean MMO's or other video games or do you mean Play by Post or do you mean using a Virtual Tabletop?

Because all three of those are VERY different experiences.

While I did mean that playing online was a perfectly valid choice, but, El Mahdi makes a good point too. Considering the number of "gamers looking for gamers" type sites, including En World, it's pretty hard to believe that you can not find ANY face to face gamers in your area. Possible. I certainly can't. But then, I live in a small town in Japan. Language is a serious issue.

 

[Halivar]

You see zero similarities? Interesting. I see similarities between WOW and 4E, 3E, L5R, GURPS, Paladium, etc...

If I put this list as a multiple-choice answer to the question "which of these things is not like the other ones; which of these things does not belong?" the answer would not be 4E.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I've been using VTT's for about 5 years now. Yes, the experience is different, but, it is in no way inferior to tabletop play.

It's inferior for me. The people aren't with me; I can't share my pizza with them. Bummer, man.

 

[Imaro]

If I put this list as a multiple-choice answer to the question "which of these things is not like the other ones; which of these things does not belong?" the answer would not be 4E.

No, it'd be Gurps...because all the other games use a class system instead of point-buy....

 

[Henry]

It's inferior for me. The people aren't with me; I can't share my pizza with them. Bummer, man.

Count me in with the "ain't nothing like live tabletop" group, too - it's why I continue to go to local gamedays and to Gencon - I genuinely like gaming with a lot of the people I meet on ENWorld and other forums. But I agree, if someone can't find local gamers and hasn't yet tried some of the gamer meetup resources on Wizards, RPGnet, Enworld, etc. they're definitely worth trying. A lot of gamers on ENWorld having found their current groups through it is testament to it.