D&D 1E Favorite Obscure Rules from TSR-era D&D

[Quickleaf]

Well, I am biased because I played for SO LONG with the five saves I know them like the back of my hand.

Wait. Why do people say that? I don't ever really look at the back of my hand. Hmmm... I know them like I know my hatred of bards. That's better. Ahem. Anyway, I love the five saves. But that's just because of me, not because they are intrinsically better or required as some Platonic ideal.

I know this will shock you, but I wrote about the history of saving throws.

D&D 5E - A Brief History of Saving Throws, the Original Plot Armor

There has been a recent thread discussing the original (1e, OD&D) saving throws, and I thought it would be helpful to examine the ways in which saving throws (and the conception of saving throws) have changed over time. As a general concept, I would say that the original conception of saving...

www.enworld.org

Hah, that OD&D dropping a rock on ladder climbers during a siege, where the first fails then it's roll saves until someone succeeds, is pretty funny.

So looking at the "Canonical Five"-
Paralyzation, Poison, or Death Magic
Petrification or Polymorph
Rod, Staff or Wand
Breath Weapon
Spell

Hmmm. Okay, If I had to simplify it ...
Paralyzation, Poison, Petrification or Polymorph (ALL OF YOUR P NEEDS!)
Rod, Staff, Wand, or Breath Weapon (STUFF GETTING SHOT AT YOU!)
Spell (which should include death magic)

The death magic was always the weirdest one, but it's because it used to be "Poison or death ray."

You kind of recreated the 3e approach.

P, P, P, P...resisting effects to the body...Fortitude?
R, S, W, B...dodging stuff shot at you...Reflex?
Spells/Death Magic... force of will maybe...Will?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

You kind of recreated the 3e approach.

P, P, P, P...resisting effects to the body...Fortitude?
R, S, W, B...dodging stuff shot at you...Reflex?
Spells/Death Magic... force of will maybe...Will?

In fairness, mine has a LOT MORE ALLITERATION!

 

[James Gasik]

Eh. I don't think that's quite it. The TSR era saves were based on what was attacking you, but took no account of how powerful the attack or attacker was. A save vs Dragon's Breath AKA Breath Weapon was the same difficulty no matter whether it was from a baby dragon or an ancient. A save vs Charm Person was the same difficulty whether it was a first level apprentice casting it or an archmage.

3rd edition and later shifted the saves/defenses to be based on how you defend against it, but they also introduced variation in difficulty based on the power of the attacher.

I do think that 3E and 4E had the most intuitive approach. I like how 2E and earlier made level the most important factor and made class and ability scores of secondary importance.

I think the Swords & Wizardry approach is elegant and pretty great overall- one single save number, but different classes get bonuses to saves vs particular attack forms.

In the TSR era there were many saves that applied a penalty to the save (or rarely a bonus). Spells like Hold Person, some poisons, the 2e Ranger's animal empathy, so sometimes the power of an attack was taken into account.

EDIT: Ninja'd by everyone lol.

 

[Mannahnin]

In the TSR era there were many saves that applied a penalty to the save (or rarely a bonus). Spells like Hold Person, some poisons, the 2e Ranger's animal empathy, so sometimes the power of an attack was taken into account.

EDIT: Ninja'd by everyone lol.

Absolutely! But again, scattered exceptions to the rule.

 

[billd91]

One effect of the AD&D save model was that different classes advanced differently. Fighters started out the worst, but since they advanced every 2 levels, they ended up very well. Magic-users were the opposite; starting out good, but advancing only every 6 levels.

And one other thing to keep in mind was that the level groupings on the saving throw table matched the level groupings on the combat tables. So at least that made some kind of sense. Then in 2e, combat advancement changed its groupings, but the saving throw table retained 1e legacy groupings - that started to look kind of weird.

While there are some aspects of the AD&D saving throw tables that were interesting, overall, I came to strongly dislike how mercurial they were in their structure.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

While there are some aspects of the AD&D saving throw tables that were interesting, overall, I came to strongly dislike how mercurial they were in their structure.

I thought it might be interesting to look at the class and saving throw matrix in AD&D (1e).

I'll just do lowest and highest levels.

	Para, Poison, Death	Petrification/Poly	Rod, Staff, Wand	Breath Weapon	Spell
Cleric 1-3	10	13	14	16	15
Cleric 19+	2	5	6	8	7
Fighter 1-2	14	15	16	17	17
Fighter 17+	3	4	5	4	4
Magic User 1-5	14	13	11	15	12
Magic User 21+	8	5	3	7	4
Thief 1-4	13	12	14	16	15
Thief 21+	8	7	4	11	5

I have bolded the best saves for low and high levels.

Observations!

1. Overall, I'd argue that the fighter is best. Not great to start, but rapidly gets better (advances every two levels). And good at all saves.

2. Clerics are good at the poison and death magic save, which makes sense, and is also why paralyzation is a weird fit there.

3. Magic users suffer from slow advancement, but they are good at RSW and spells, which makes sense, and ... breath weapons? Okay?

4. Thieves? Slow to advance, and they never are that great. Seriously, a TWENTY-FIRST level thief has an 8 ... against poison. C'mon. I only have one thing to say when it comes to the Thief.


GYGAX!!!!!!!!!

 

[billd91]

4. Thieves? Slow to advance, and they never are that great. Seriously, a TWENTY-FIRST level thief has an 8 ... against poison. C'mon. I only have one thing to say when it comes to the Thief.

Yes, the thief is pretty badly effed on those tables. Notice how everybody's saves all get below 10 for every category... except for thieves and breath weapons.

 

[Voadam]

Another observation

Things shift with levels.

Those who are best at a category to start are not always best at the top end.

Fighters start out worst at literally everything, then become best in 3/5 and second best in the other two.

 

[fuindordm]

Dex and magic armor help on a lot of these saves, but yeah thieves got the short end again.

 

[RhaezDaevan]

I thought it might be interesting to look at the class and saving throw matrix in AD&D (1e).

I'll just do lowest and highest levels.

	Para, Poison, Death	Petrification/Poly	Rod, Staff, Wand	Breath Weapon	Spell
Cleric 1-3	10	13	14	16	15
Cleric 19+	2	5	6	8	7
Fighter 1-2	14	15	16	17	17
Fighter 17+	3	4	5	4	4
Magic User 1-5	14	13	11	15	12
Magic User 21+	8	5	3	7	4
Thief 1-4	13	12	14	16	15
Thief 21+	8	7	4	11	5

I have bolded the best saves for low and high levels.

Observations!

1. Overall, I'd argue that the fighter is best. Not great to start, but rapidly gets better (advances every two levels). And good at all saves.

2. Clerics are good at the poison and death magic save, which makes sense, and is also why paralyzation is a weird fit there.

3. Magic users suffer from slow advancement, but they are good at RSW and spells, which makes sense, and ... breath weapons? Okay?

4. Thieves? Slow to advance, and they never are that great. Seriously, a TWENTY-FIRST level thief has an 8 ... against poison. C'mon. I only have one thing to say when it comes to the Thief.


GYGAX!!!!!!!!!

Personally, I feel Magic-User and Thief should have swapped Breath Weapon saves. An agile thief should be better at leaping out of the way of danger than the fragile mage.