Feint+sneak attack and imp. feint

[Belares]

Ok I am sure this has been beaten to death, but I did not see a thread on it..maybe didnt go back far enough.

1. According to the rules (3.5) you can use feint to get a attack vs. opponents who are denied there dexterity on AC. The rule states I think on or before your next attack.

So that means i move up to opponent use a standard action to feint I am successful and then on my next attack in the next round I can make a attack action or a full attack action and get a sneak attack on my attack(s)?

I guess what i am getting at is that I cannot make a feint as a move equivalent action and then get a sneak attack on my attack action because a feint is a standard action..unless i have improved feint then I can use my attack action with feint as it is now a move equivalent action..hmmm i semi-answered my question on that. So then i HAVE to make the next round my feint action round and I should be able to get sneak attacks on all attacks..right?

Does this also mean if i have feinted successfully then i can use sneak attack on AoO...right?

One last question can i make a feint against multiple targets using the same bluff roll or seperate? and if i can do it against mul. opponents then can i use sneak attack on all of them if i get mutliple attacks?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

1. The feint action denies your opponent his/her dex bonus against your next (singular) attack.

1a. This means that if your next attack is a full attack action, only your first attack is a sneak attack (unless there is something else that qualifies you for sneak attack--invisibility, a blind opponent, flanking, etc).

1b. Yes, this could conceivably be an attack of opportunity if your opponent manages to provoke one before what would otherwise be "your next attack."

2. Yes, with improved feint, you can feint (MeA) and then attack (standard).

2a. Yes, this does mean that you could conceivably get sneak attack damage on all your attacks (although you have to win all of the bluff checks to do so).

3. The Improved feint and the feint in combat action in 3.5 force you to specify a single target. Therefore you can't make bluff checks against multiple opponents with the same roll.

3a. Theoretically, you could use two MeAs for improved feints in one round. Then, if you successfully bluffed two different targets and had at least 2 attacks on the next round, you would be able to land a (single) sneak attack against both targets.

 

[LokiDR]

First, some background:

If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

So that means i move up to opponent use a standard action to feint I am successful and then on my next attack in the next round I can make a attack action or a full attack action and get a sneak attack on my attack(s)?

Next attack only. Only one SA per feint.

I guess what i am getting at is that I cannot make a feint as a move equivalent action and then get a sneak attack on my attack action because a feint is a standard action..unless i have improved feint then I can use my attack action with feint as it is now a move equivalent action..hmmm i semi-answered my question on that. So then i HAVE to make the next round my feint action round and I should be able to get sneak attacks on all attacks..right?

Next single attack up to 1 round from then.

Does this also mean if i have feinted successfully then i can use sneak attack on AoO...right?

Yes

One last question can i make a feint against multiple targets using the same bluff roll or seperate? and if i can do it against mul. opponents then can i use sneak attack on all of them if i get mutliple attacks?

It is targeted, "mislead an opponent", so 1 subject.

 

[lokiare1]

FEINT
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.
Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Feinting as a Move Action: With the Improved Feint feat, you can attempt a feint as a move action instead of as a standard action.

This is the exact quote from the d20 rules reference for 3.5. I was under the impression you only got one standard action per combat round, and that if you use a full attack action you would get mutiple attacks but the entire full attack action is still equal to one standard action, am I mistaken? So if this is true then you would only get to make a single sneak attack regardless of whether you were doing a full attack action which would allow you to make multiple attacks, so you would choose which attack would do the sneak attack, but you couldn't use the feint in exhange for any of your other attacks right?

 

[lokiare1]

FULL-ROUND ACTIONS
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.

The feint says it is a standard action, this is a quote from the d20 3.5 rules reference, so you cannot take a standard action coupled with a full attackactions (as it is a full round action), therefore if you get five attacks with a full attack action, you cannot use any of your attacks to feint.

 

[LokiDR]

This is the exact quote from the d20 rules reference for 3.5. I was under the impression you only got one standard action per combat round, and that if you use a full attack action you would get mutiple attacks but the entire full attack action is still equal to one standard action, am I mistaken?

Yes. A full attack is not a standard action and consists of multiple separate attacks. If you were invisible (as the 2nd level spell) you would become visible after the first attack and not have the +2 attack on iterative or other attacks in the round.

So if this is true then you would only get to make a single sneak attack regardless of whether you were doing a full attack action which would allow you to make multiple attacks, so you would choose which attack would do the sneak attack, but you couldn't use the feint in exhange for any of your other attacks right?

Right. 1 feint is at most 1 sneak attack unless something else allows you to have sneak attack, such as flanking.

By the way, welcome to the boards. I like the username.

 

[lokiare1]

Thanks about the name, I've had it since before 94 and thanks for confirming my thoughts.

 

[Camarath]

This is the exact quote from the d20 rules reference for 3.5. I was under the impression you only got one standard action per combat round, and that if you use a full attack action you would get mutiple attacks but the entire full attack action is still equal to one standard action, am I mistaken?

From SRD
FULL-ROUND ACTIONS
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.

Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.


A full attack action is a full round action comprised of multiple attacks.

So if this is true then you would only get to make a single sneak attack regardless of whether you were doing a full attack action which would allow you to make multiple attacks, so you would choose which attack would do the sneak attack, but you couldn't use the feint in exhange for any of your other attacks right?

From SRD
Feinting in Combat: You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.
If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

Only on your next attack is the target denied its Dexterity bonus to AC.

From SRD
IMPROVED FEINT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action.
Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action.

You can not substtute standard or move action for attacks when using a Full Attack. So you can not feint in place of your attacks. With impoved feint your can feint as a move action and then make a single attack as a standard action. You get either a one full round action a round or you get a move action and a standard action.

 

[Belares]

thanks for confirming my thoughts.

Bah you dont want my rogue to be better than he is!

So with all this said..I Could feint one oppeonent and if i am flanking one other then i can get sneak attacks on both ..asssuming that the one opponent is not the flanked opponent? Again if I can get more than one attack.

This makes a hasted rogue even better!

BTW I am understanding that you still get a sneak attack on all attacks if person is denied dex for Ac or flanked..I mean it is not been redone where it is only one attack..i heard they may have changed that but i dont see that exact ruling?

 

[Camarath]

This makes a hasted rogue even better!

From SRD
Haste
Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.
All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.
Multiple haste effects don’t stack. Haste dispels and counters slow.
Material Component: A shaving of licorice root.

Even with Haste you still need to take a full attack action to get more than one attack.