[FFG] Legendary Class Design Contest!

[Khur]

Spirited Spirits...

I'm not sure I understand why you felt I was afraid to commit to legendary power. Please explain that comment.

The blanket statement requiring the rage seems to limit the powers severely, unless I misunderstood the statement. Regardless of power-level, you can only use the powers while raging. That’s all. I liked the ideas and much of your execution. Perhaps I’m just too thick-skulled! It’s possible.

1. I don't believe I said under the Rage Form heading that Rage Form was only useable in rage.

The power begins: “When a spirit of the beast rages, he gains the ability to shape shift into the form of his animal totem.” That suggested to me that it was only useable in rage. I don’t blame you for the blanket note, but I still think that some of these powers should be usable outside of rage … like Spirit Walk.

The elemental subtype to me, was the logical progression of the next powerful creature from Huge size. Nature, in many nature-based society's philosophies, is composed of 4 or 5 elements. Please give an example of the 5 level of progression you would have used?

I’m not trying to invalidate your logic, which is certainly appropriate to the D&D cosmology, but most of the reading I’ve don didn’t show that “primitive” or “nature-based” societies had complex concepts of elementalism. I’d be glad to see your references. The concept of five elements comes largely from scientific mysticism of somewhat evolved societies according to my studies (Kabbalah, Vedic culture (late I think), Egyptian Mystery Systems, Hermetic Orders, etc.).

My list (standing on the shoulders of your work, of course) slightly less powerful than a druid:

• Level I – Normal size for Wild Shape
• Level II – Hybrid Form
• Level III – Large-sized animal
• Level IV – Large Hybrid (This requires some definition, but that’s cool and eliminates the Huge man-bear problem, but gives you the ability to become a grizzly-sized man-bear – like Beorn!)
• Level V – Dire Animal (size is not a factor for the term dire)

Hybrid forms aren’t cheesy, most people seem to like them. The problems are making them seem realistic within the fantasy cosmology in which they exist and coming up with stats that reflect the nature of the form.

2. On the Binding Ritual save DC's, the idea was that during the preparation, the Shaman very well could enhance his saves with magic, and I wanted to make it very difficult.

You succeeded and I really like your quests, if I didn’t make that clear. Another solution is that the shaman and the aspirant himself cannot use the aid of other spirits (magic or magic items). Lowering the Will save seems appropriate. You have to remember that this quest reads like, “You fail, you lose your character barring hefty juju to bring him back from 2 Int or permanent animal form.”

3. Howl of the Beast: I agree, the power could be ridiculous if he had an 18 Cha, and rolled a 6, and his animal totem was elephant. Can you imagine fighting next to 10 Dire Elephants?

I like the concept and the power and you understand my worst-case-scenario analysis. Your solutions to the problem satisfy my aching DM head and save me from munchkinism at its worst. (BTW munchkins can be fun, I’m not coming down on the little sweethearts.)

4. Spirit Walk: … the Spirit of the Beast is NOT "true" spell caster. The idea was, that it would give him an ability to do some stealthy recon and/or walk through an otherwise impassable wall, or something like that.

The problem is that you state the ability is usable on during rage (in your blanket statement) and nobody does recon while raging. Secondly, being able to use a single spell as a spell-like ability is fine for a noncaster – a precedent set by WotC. And just to pick nits, anyone who takes a spellcasting class level is a true caster.

6. Totemic Smite: The reasoning is that Favored Enemy grants them a better chance to hit harder because they are intimately familiar with tactics, anatomy, etc. The favored enemy part facilitates the catastrophic attack part.

I agree, I don’t know what I was thinking … I reread the power and it seems legit and tastily deadly!

Nice work. I know making these classes work is difficult. I’m doing an awful lot of editing for no pay!

 

[Tallow]

Re: Spirited Spirits...

The blanket statement requiring the rage seems to limit the powers severely, unless I misunderstood the statement. Regardless of power-level, you can only use the powers while raging. That’s all. I liked the ideas and much of your execution. Perhaps I’m just too thick-skulled! It’s possible.
The power begins: “When a spirit of the beast rages, he gains the ability to shape shift into the form of his animal totem.” That suggested to me that it was only useable in rage. I don’t blame you for the blanket note, but I still think that some of these powers should be usable outside of rage … like Spirit Walk.
I’m not trying to invalidate your logic, which is certainly appropriate to the D&D cosmology, but most of the reading I’ve don didn’t show that “primitive” or “nature-based” societies had complex concepts of elementalism. I’d be glad to see your references. The concept of five elements comes largely from scientific mysticism of somewhat evolved societies according to my studies (Kabbalah, Vedic culture (late I think), Egyptian Mystery Systems, Hermetic Orders, etc.).

Nice work. I know making these classes work is difficult. I’m doing an awful lot of editing for no pay!

Hey, I really do appreciate all the comments. Sometimes someone you don't know who will give an unbiased dispassionate view of things is the best critique one can get.

I agree, perhaps Spirit Walk and the Spirit Casting power can be done outside of Rage.

Oriental Animism, which is the religion/philosophy of the east before Buddhism or Confusius or Daoism (in Japan it was called Shintoism) had a belief that everything was made from Metal, Wind, Wood, Fire, and Water I believe. The D&D Cosmology kinda follows that, but with the 4 Elements and all their quasi and para combinations.

Yes, perhaps your progression would work better. Although being able to change into a Huge animal would be cool I think.

Andy Christian

 

[Khur]

Don't I have a life?

Reddist,

Haven't you guys seen "Everywhich Way But Loose," "Roadhouse," "Fight Club," …

I hope I didn’t and don’t hurt your feelings … the class was fun. Even in the movies you mention, nobody was really like a demigod (except maybe Tyler Durden, but even he gets beat up pretty quick by Moe). I like your tweaks though and they make the class clearer and less of a headache for poor DMs just trying to have fun too. I agree with d20 Dwarf in that 2 or 3 DR per level works fine, depending on how tough you want the guy to be. Real toughs in the D&D game can dish out lotsa subdual with their fists.

Did you consider making the Brawler able to do real damage with his fists? (The “nobody dies” statement was duly noted.) What about adding a feature to Shrug Off Blows that allows the Brawler to soak some real damage as long as it comes from “unarmed” attacks?


Shadeus,

Combine that with Imp. Init and a Base 20 Dex and you have +16 to Initiative. Is that balanced?

Don’t worry so much about how certain numbers total, especially if they’re only used once in a combat. Think about the spell true strike. I had a player's Ftr/Abj use cast true strike and then he rolled a 20 on his next attack (a threat), and then rolled a 20 on the threat -- I didn't make him roll for the instant kill. It was fun to describe the results of such a roll.

The player decides to get +16 to initiative instead of other abilities. So he gets to go first in every combat in which he’s not surprised. That’s really not so unbalancing, but it is pretty legendary.

“Grandmaster of the Clouds, Ling Po, was ambushed by thirteen men, yet before they could fire their already-leveled crossbows, he was among them and five of them were already dead!”

Fun stuff!

PS -- Does the grandmaster continue to get monk unarmed attack bonuses?

 

[RedCliff]

Blade of God

Blade of God: Sort of a super paladin. Certainly something legends could be told of. Arthur and his knights quested for the holy grail, Gawain had a portrait of Mary on the inside of his shield to give him stength in combat, and so on. In D&D, where you have things like the Time of Troubles, holy champions work even better.

I liked the quests as a base concept, especially the first one. I don't really see it as a tried and true legendary feat to make it past scholarly debates, but it's a nice touch that the church isn't willing to simply chuck away valuable members of their establishment simply because they think they might have had a calling. Establishing the validity of the call, and the worthiness of the recipient is a neat idea.

I think the trials should be broken out more though. Any DM is free to invent his own; that's a given. Still, I would have liked to see a few more bulleted points. Make recovering an artifact or lost site a quest. Make military service against religious enemies a separate quest.

And while I like the idea of serving as an acolyte to teach humility, I wonder about the playability of it. It's a solid story idea, but how many people want their hard earned prestige stripped away so they can spend a year of game time slopping pig troughs or collecting alms. I realize you can skip over it, but doing that takes away the emphasis of it all. And it seems to me that adventuring during that time would violate the spirit of the quest as well. It's not impossible to deal with, but it might prove difficult.

As to the quest of fighting the avatar, I like it in concept, but I think that fighting your own god's avatar might not quite be right. What about hunting down the avatar or high priest of an enemy deity. Besting either of those would be sure to win the warrior a special place in the patron deity's heart.

As for the requirements, they look pretty solid overall. I question weapon specialization though. I know this is a fighter based legendary class, but with the hard religious bent of it, this class seems made for paladins. With the restriction on paladin multi-classing though, unless the poor holy warrior didn't receive his call to paladinhood until after four levels of fighter, he's doomed to be denied this special calling from his deity. Seems a bit harsh I think. And I'm not sure what the reason is for limiting this class to followers of deities with bladed weapons. If Blade of God can easily become Blade of Heronius, then couldn't it also become Cudgel of Cuthbert?

Critical Attack is deadly in the extreme, and perhaps a bit powerful. Perhaps limiting this to a number of times per day equal to the power level, or requiring the use of one of the warriors turn attempts, or smite attempts, might bring it in line. I like the idea of the deity being able to grant its chosen phenominal ability with its chosen weapon, but even a +3 to the threat range of a weapon for every strike, all the time, especially considering that Improved Critical is already a requirement, would risk every strike being a threat. Calling on another divine ability, like a smite or a turn attempt, would invoke the idea of divine aid more strongly as well (and would make Smite of God all the more important as well).

Critical Damage is also fiercely deadly, but the caveat of a limited number of times per day already brings it back into line, so it doesn't strike me as horribly unbalancing. I might change it from declaring it before the critical dice are rolled to declaring it before rolling the second attack to confirm the critical though.

Dancing Attack is the last of the big guns. Doubling the number of attacks is amazingly powerful (I assume the BAB for that round would be something like +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3). Ouch. And that's over multiple rounds. I think with very little modification though, this could really work. Instead of doubling the number of attacks, why not try something like what WotC set up for their prestige class, the Tempest? In that, you gain more and more attacks per round, but continually lose 5 points per attack. So instead of the attack scheme above, the BAB would be +13/+8/+3/-2/-7/-12. Harsh, yes, but that's only base attack. Strength modifiers still apply, as do weapon focus, magical bonuses, etc. And that makes Strength of God all the more useful as well.

Overall I liked the idea for this class, though ultimately I think its focus places it a bit outside the bounds of the fighter, ranger, barbarian, monk category stated. Still, with a little tweaking, it has the potential to create some fantastic heroes.

 

[RedCliff]

Brawler fixes

What about adding a feature to Shrug Off Blows that allows the Brawler to soak some real damage as long as it comes from “unarmed” attacks?

What about the ability to translate a certain amount of real damage from bludgeoning attacks into subdual? That might be worthy of a power all its own though. But in conjunction with the ability to recover more quickly from subdual, it could be useful, powerful (though not overly so, I think), and appropriate. As the text of calloused knuckles says, fending off barbarians wielding wooden chairs toughens a man. Extending that to being able to take a clubbing a little better seems not so outrageous.

 

[ajanders]

Lord of The Land

The Lord of the Land seems like a good idea, but some ritual mystic tie to the land seems to be in order … like the pagan ceremony Arthur undergoes in The Mists of Avalon. Recognition of some applicable deity through some heroic act would be good.

I almost did require that, then backed off. It seemed more legendary to me to have the power come from the act of rulership itself, rather than being bestowed or allowed by a deity.
That's probably more personal bias than good research, however. I would be interested in people's opinions on that, more for an idea about themes and the potential place of religion than for the mechanics of the class.

The quests seem not more than would be expected of any good noble.
That's true as I had them written. This class is inspired by some events going on in my campaign, where one of the countries is being faced with a threat of legendary/country or world destroying proportions. I got stuck figuring out how to say "Defend country from terrible legendary foe" without making a reference to legendary foes that probably don't exist in other people's campaigns.

The binding of the land to the lord is very nice, but needs more strict definition.
All I can say is it made sense to me when I wrote it. Let me try and be more clear: any condition or non-hitpoint damage the Lord suffers will be felt by the Land, who must resist it as the Lord does.
That means if the Lord of the Land is targeted by a Bestow Curse spell and fails their saving throw, every other plant, animal, and person in the Land will be cursed, just like the Lord. (-4 to all actions or -6 to an ability, etc.) When the Lord recieves the Remove Curse spell, the entire land has the curse lifted.
Similarly, the Lord will be affected by any condition (like disease or poison) that affects his land. If there's a typhoid epidemic, the Lord gets sick too.
This ability bypasses saving throws: the Lord of the Land cannot resist the diseases that affect 1st level commoners with his +37 Fort Save.

Shouldn’t Defender of the Land stack at each power level?
I was afraid to do a pure stack with damage resistance. Eventually someone reaches the point where they have +15/100, and I refuse to allow +15 weapons in my games. Leaving the damage resistance intensity at a +1 allows the Lord more power while not making them untouchable.
Commander of the Land, Seer of the Land, Leader of the Land, Healer of the Land, and Traveler of the Land all need to be more closely tied to power level too, but they’re great ideas.
I'm pleased you enjoyed them.
I'm not sure quite how to tie them to the power level of the character or the class more than they are already with the stacking.

I also think the noble should have a class skill list like the aristocrat or fighter.
Oddly enough, those are the two skill lists I have altered most greatly in my game.
The aristocrat has an amazing number of skills and skill points: the fighter has ridiculously few.
While I won't digress on those classes, suffice it to say the skill list was built to reflect a Lord actively focused on improving their Land, not practicing fighting skills or courtly intrigue.

I thank you for your feedback. I am particularly grateful for the religion comments. I have an abnormal set of opinions and an abnormal campaign in that regard, so am in constant need of reality checks as to what other people are doing.
Although the expression "reality check" is probably not exactly right...
Thank you again for your advice.

 

[kingpaul]

Re: Half the batch critiqued ... phew!

Blade of God – I like the idea, but the requirements seem a bit steep at first glance and I disfavor the Str requirement. The player would have to be very careful and know very early that the legendary class was the goal sought. I do like the secondary implication of the character being a lawful good fighter until level 4 (Weapon Specialization) and then being inducted into a holy order (Paladin for Knowledge (religion) and turn undead probably, as a cleric would have to be 11th level (and Ftr 4) to meet the BAB requirement). The second quest is a bit hokey and doesn’t allow for campaign worlds in which deities have no avatar—most published avatars would kill a high-level character in a few rounds. The powers are very good, excepting Awareness of God which could just be Blindsight 10’ per power level, plus detect good or evil (as appropriate) at will.

Ok, this one's mine. Now, I didn't consider deities not having avatars. Further, it was my thought that the DM would control the avatar, with a goal of not necessarily killing the character, but making sure the character has the martial prowess of being worthy of being called a Blade.

As for Awareness of God, the character gets to choose, up to their power level, a number of abilities in their.

 

[kingpaul]

Blade of God - In general, I wasn't clear exactly what they feel for this legendary class was. I didn't understand why strength was a requirement, although it must be tied to the ability bonus to Strength. I thought some of the abilities were a bit overboard. Critical Attack and Dancing Attack are a bit too powerful, IMO. I also noticed in the Aura of Gods ability, that they receive turning enhancement, although being able to turn isn't a requirement to be this legend. Same with the extra smiting. Sorry, this one didn't sit right with me.

I had a high Str due to the damage potential.

I have being able to turn as part of the requirements in the "Special" section.

As for smiting, I said "additional". To me, if you don't have, you now get it; if you already have it, you get more.

PS: I'm not trying to be rude or condescending in my replies with this, or any, reviews of my classes, just trying to be consise.

 

[kingpaul]

Re: More critiques and fun...

The Ranged Huntsman is another good ranger class (we seem to like rangers and monks in this contest). Of course, the Huntsman must be at least a 4th-level fighter to meet the Feat requirements. (Paul did a good job with his prerequisites BTW, probably the best in the group—even if I dislike requirements of 18 stat scores.) In the first quest it seems unclear to me whether or not just one of these acts is required – if so, it’s too easy. If the Huntsman can use the healing herbs of nature to mystically heal, shouldn’t he be required to have Profession (herbalist) and the Heal skill at a certain level? I also think that Improved Far Shot would have been enough range-affecting powers. Improved Rapid shot is good and a lot like what I recommended for the Deadeye Archer. I like that such a character is especially deadly to his favored enemies, but these powers seem a bit too powerful … they could be scaled back a bit.

As for the first set of quests, I meant more than one of those (hint: all), plus some more of the DMs devising...sorry about not being more clear.

I hadn't thought of adding Profession (herbalist) or Heal as prereqs. Will edit to add.

How would you recommend scaling back the Favored Enemy abilities?

 

[Shadeus]

I had a high Str due to the damage potential.

I have being able to turn as part of the requirements in the "Special" section.

As for smiting, I said "additional". To me, if you don't have, you now get it; if you already have it, you get more.

PS: I'm not trying to be rude or condescending in my replies with this, or any, reviews of my classes, just trying to be consise.

Don't worry about it. It's hard to critique something properly and still convey your good intensions. But its understood.

Hmm, failed spot check on the turn req. Sorry about that kingpaul.