[FFG] Legendary Class Design Contest!

[Khur]

Paul's answers...

Ok, this one's mine. Now, I didn't consider deities not having avatars. Further, it was my thought that the DM would control the avatar, with a goal of not necessarily killing the character....

As for Awareness of God, the character gets to choose, up to their power level, a number of abilities....

Actually, even if a deity doesn't have an avatar, perhaps a powerful celestial could manifest to test the character, eh? If the goal of the manifested divinity is not to kill the character, but test, that should have been more clear in the text. I like that BTW.

I understood Awareness of God, but I thought that the list was a bit mismatched. Why would someone choose Low-light and Darkvision, when darkvision essentially gives you the effects of Low-light and then the ability to see B&W in total darkness?

My suggestion merely asserted that the power could be simplified and made to do everything listed there via making the ability do the following:

The Blade gains Blindsight at, perhaps, 5-20 feet per power level (the Blindsight feat grants 5’), whichever you feel is not too powerful. Great for those dark parts of nether planes when nasties can sneak up on you.

Further, depending on the Blade’s alignment, he or she gains the ability to detect good or detect evil at will. Perhaps, the detection can be automatic within a certain radius, especially if the character already possesses detect evil at will. The power might grant detect evil at will and automatically within 10’ per power level. The “automatic” part is just the presence of evil somewhere nearby and, perhaps, it’s general power level. This makes a great storytelling device for the DM. ”Sir Lamorak smells the fetid breath of wickedness here….”

Re Ranged Huntsman, Khur said: I like that such a character is especially deadly to his favored enemies, but these powers seem a bit too powerful … they could be scaled back a bit.

Paul asked: How would you recommend scaling back the Favored Enemy abilities?

The two powers listed seem to do an awful lot of damage, especially if stacked. I’d probably limit them to uses per day. This can seem a bit cheesy, but WotC does it all the time in Prestige Classes with such abilities.

Legendary Favored Enemy Critical Strike could increase the critical damage multiplier by one per power level and still allow this damage to apply to those normally immune to criticals. Perhaps this ability can allow the Huntsman to do ranged deathblows (see the Assassin in the DMG)! Then call it Death to All Enemies or something flashy.

Perhaps, for Legendary Favored Enemy Strike you could require flanking like a sneak attack and clearly state that this damage is not multiplied by criticals. If that seems overly weak (considering Rog/Asn sneak attacks) you could add the ability to do Crippling Strikes (the attacks do 1d4 Str, Dex, or Con (player choice) damage as well as normal damage). You could make the damage ability damage altogether, 1d4 per power level. 5d4 ability damage can be pretty heinous, but knowledge of Favored Enemies certainly would give the character the know-how for such a thing. Maybe then the name could be Hamstring the Hated or Precision Piercing. Of course, enemies immune to criticals might be deemed immune to the ability damage as well. (i.e. You cannot do Con damage to an undead creature.)

These are just rapid-fire ideas, but I think they might work given a little tweaking. And the ability damage has a precedent in existing Prestige Classes.

Hope it helps!

 

[Khur]

The last few!

The Messiah has a bold name, especially given that D&D is evil. I like the concept even though, being an armchair philosopher and theologian myself, I have some qualms with the execution. The requirements are too easy, even ignoring d20 Dwarf’s revelations. The first two quests' misuse of pronouns leads to some confusing writing that I can’t translate, so I can’t make much of a statement. The general ideas that I do get seem good.

**get’s up on soapbox**

The Inner Spark quest is one I have great qualms with, since most of the legendary historic figures of Earthly religions did not find their Self through asceticism (self denial and mortification for religious purpose). In fact, Buddha (Guatma Siddharta) turned from that path directly and relied upon mere meditation. While he did renounce his inheritance, abandon his wife, and give up worldly goods, he found that the path of the ascetic to be one that merely destroys the body. He meditated under a Bo tree and there faced trials. Mara (an “evil” deity (or demon) of the world’s illusions) sent tricks of worldly delights, such as beautiful women, as well as attacking demons. Still Buddha meditated. Mara flung a discus of fire at Buddha, but it turned into a canopy of flowers. Finally, there was a storm, but Muchalinda, king of the Nagas, protected Guatma from it. The enlightened Guatma then had a choice to leave the world for Nirvana, or stay in the world to help save it (Mara encouraged Buddha to the former, Brahma to the latter). The most important point here is that Guatma reached enlightenment through meditation, not hallucinations brought on by hunger. This can easily be translated into game encounters and trials, which I’ll do if requested. This story resembles Jesus’ temptation in the desert, although that story is one of fasting—but Jesus was not an “inner spark” messiah.

**get’s down off soapbox**

I think that a messiah most certainly should have the Sense Motive skill as a class skill. Convert Followers is cool in concept, but changing warrior levels to monk levels is a bit extreme. Further, most similar “monks” in the real world fit the adept class more than monks. False Religion truly rocks, but needs more definition, unless the intent was for the Messiah to be able to cancel such magics automatically. Keep in mind, also that many wise men of the past were able to cancel arcane magic as well (Moses vs the pharaoh’s magicians). Holy Words is another good concept. Perform Miracles works for me, though perhaps the effects requiring XP expenditure should be disallowed. Unmatched Resolve might need a higher bonus. I like Write the Book too, but it seems it should be Write The Book.

The One is well executed, but I don’t like that the saves are all high, especially considering the Fortress of the Self ability. I must say, that the class is fun, though I’ve never seen the movie. Sorry I don’t have much to say. The class is good, but that it’s based on an existing idea, and therefore much easier to write, makes comment less appropriate. I would use this class for a diversion from regular play.

The Prophet had me from the introduction … unfortunately it appears to be a cleric legendary class and not one for Fighters, Rangers, Paladins , and Monks. (Paladins cannot cast 7th-level spells.) Isn’t that outside the rules of the contest? Regardless, I like the class. I would have included all Knowledge skills as class skills as well as Sense Motive, while Animal Empathy seems a strange addition to the list. Animal Form seems out of place in theme, even if it fits with the class in tales -- perhaps give access to travel spells somehow. Aura of Command should raise the DC by +2 per power level, like the spell focus feat. Yes, I realize this means +10 to DC at 5th-level – which means a Prophet with 18 stat for casting gets DC 20 + 4 + spell level for enchantment spells – very legendary indeed. I realize that 100 feet for Aura of the Divine is good for game balance, but I’d have liked to see the range be visual – as long as allies can see the prophet.

**get’s up on soapbox**

Oracle is really nice, but falls into the same hole as most D&D divination: fear of giving out information. Make your players understand that the future is not set, but flowing and malleable depending on the actions of those in the world. Oracular vision sees time from the standpoint of, “As things stand NOW, what will the future be?” Diviners, ancient and modern, take the flexibility of time for granted. If your players understand this, they will know that divination can help, but can never be utterly relied upon. Arcane language is another good solution – telling the whole truth in such a way that the characters must figure it out and may only “get it” in hindsight.

**get’s down off soapbox**

Why would you include aligned effects (evil, chaos) in a list of abilities? Order of God is a good power, but you need more options because some prophets could not choose certain aligned abilities. Expand the list to include other “word” spells as options. I like Overpowering Faith, and the limit you impose on it (a ready action). I also like the other two abilities in the class – very tasty.

Great work all! Lotsa fun to read.

And we’re done ….

 

[kingpaul]

Re: Blade of God

Blade of God: Sort of a super paladin.

I had envisioned that Paladins could be of this, but I didn't want to limit it to only Paladins.

I liked the quests as a base concept, especially the first one. I don't really see it as a tried and true legendary feat to make it past scholarly debates, but it's a nice touch that the church isn't willing to simply chuck away valuable members of their establishment simply because they think they might have had a calling. Establishing the validity of the call, and the worthiness of the recipient is a neat idea.

I think the trials should be broken out more though. Any DM is free to invent his own; that's a given. Still, I would have liked to see a few more bulleted points. Make recovering an artifact or lost site a quest. Make military service against religious enemies a separate quest.

And while I like the idea of serving as an acolyte to teach humility, I wonder about the playability of it. It's a solid story idea, but how many people want their hard earned prestige stripped away so they can spend a year of game time slopping pig troughs or collecting alms. I realize you can skip over it, but doing that takes away the emphasis of it all. And it seems to me that adventuring during that time would violate the spirit of the quest as well. It's not impossible to deal with, but it might prove difficult.

I included the first quest bullet with examples. I included some that I thought would be good ones that the DM could use, but I didn't want to limit the DM's imagination. Personally, I like the religious debate and serving as an acolyte, as it shows that the character has a true understanding of the deity they serve and the humility to do it.

As to the quest of fighting the avatar, I like it in concept, but I think that fighting your own god's avatar might not quite be right. What about hunting down the avatar or high priest of an enemy deity. Besting either of those would be sure to win the warrior a special place in the patron deity's heart.

Y'know, going after an enemy avatar never occurred to me. It makes as much sense as having your own deity's avatar testing you.

As for the requirements, they look pretty solid overall. I question weapon specialization though. I know this is a fighter based legendary class, but with the hard religious bent of it, this class seems made for paladins. With the restriction on paladin multi-classing though, unless the poor holy warrior didn't receive his call to paladinhood until after four levels of fighter, he's doomed to be denied this special calling from his deity. Seems a bit harsh I think. And I'm not sure what the reason is for limiting this class to followers of deities with bladed weapons. If Blade of God can easily become Blade of Heronius, then couldn't it also become Cudgel of Cuthbert?

I was thinking that the character's order might allow fighters and paladins to freely multi-class. The FRCS has several orders that allow both monks and paladins to freely multi-class, so the idea is out there to be used.

Quite honestly, I had the bladed weapon restriction mainly because I couldn't think up a name that implied what I wanted besides Blade.

Critical Attack is deadly in the extreme, and perhaps a bit powerful. Perhaps limiting this to a number of times per day equal to the power level, or requiring the use of one of the warriors turn attempts, or smite attempts, might bring it in line. I like the idea of the deity being able to grant its chosen phenominal ability with its chosen weapon, but even a +3 to the threat range of a weapon for every strike, all the time, especially considering that Improved Critical is already a requirement, would risk every strike being a threat. Calling on another divine ability, like a smite or a turn attempt, would invoke the idea of divine aid more strongly as well (and would make Smite of God all the more important as well).

I like the recommendation of using either turning attempts or smite attempts to power this ability.

Dancing Attack is the last of the big guns. Doubling the number of attacks is amazingly powerful (I assume the BAB for that round would be something like +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3). Ouch. And that's over multiple rounds. I think with very little modification though, this could really work. Instead of doubling the number of attacks, why not try something like what WotC set up for their prestige class, the Tempest? In that, you gain more and more attacks per round, but continually lose 5 points per attack. So instead of the attack scheme above, the BAB would be +13/+8/+3/-2/-7/-12. Harsh, yes, but that's only base attack. Strength modifiers still apply, as do weapon focus, magical bonuses, etc. And that makes Strength of God all the more useful as well.

Its over multiple rounds, true. However, you only can use it for the power level. I thought that was a decent limiting factor. Yes, the warrior types would have good attacks (especially if they have the Two-Weapon fighting feats). I thought that this was a good ability that a deity could grant one of its chosen.

 

[kingpaul]

winner announced

Just out of curiousity, when will the winners be announced? I'm burning to know if one of mine was chosen...as I'm sure the other competitors are.

 

[reddist]

The One feedback

Khur said:
The One is well executed, but I don’t like that the saves are all high, especially considering the Fortress of the Self ability.

Doh. I was thinking Monk saves (stuck in the "Jet Li is an insane whirling dervish of fists and feet" mindset) but I should have made Will the low one.

I did think it was fun, and I had fun writing it. I think it'd be a fun little diversion, and might make for some nasty NPC villains if your PCs have taken to plane-hopping. Won't THEY be surprised.

Many thanks for your thoughts.

-Reddist

 

[reddist]

Alrighty, Dwarf!

So talk! Spill yer beans! Give up the goods!

What did the folks at FFG think of these?

-Reddist

 

[d20Dwarf]

Winners!

Ok, here are the 10 winners of the contest, in no particular order. I don't have time right now to comment on each, but I'll just say I'm glad to see that the classes are generating some excitement!

Dwarven Forgemaster
Green Warden
Warrior of the Broken Wake
The King's Warden
The Maitre d'Escrime
The Brawler
Storm
Neclord
Elf Lord
The True King

Congratulations to all the winners! Once Morrus sends us your contact information we'll send out your prizes!

A big thanks to Morrus for hosting the contest, he rocks!!!

 

[Shadeus]

Thanks FFG. It was a fun contest. Good luck with the books.

 

[Khur]

Sweet!

The Green Warden was mine!

Congrats to the other winners and a tipped hat to all the great contestants. After reading so many good entries, I wondered if mine would be selected.

What does everyone (including Morrus and Wil and FFG) think about editing these so they meet official FFG standards and doing a little book for EN World and FFG. We could design and illustrate it too – I have the ability (and desire) to do some of the work. I think it would be worthwhile, even if we give the compilation away. Plus it’d be a great portfolio (writing and/or art) piece for those involved.

I've been editing the Green Warden based on the revelations here already.

It doesn’t have to be limited to the 10 winners either. Most of these entries have enough creamy goodness in them to be made into something.

What d’ya think?

I’ve put the link to my site back in my profile, so people can check out my design work to decide if I’m worthy of helping out on the above idea. (Just click www beow my post!)

 

[Krug]

Re: Sweet!

A netbook of Legendary Classes? Sounds cool!