Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

[Zaukrie]

C'mon Erik, you could squeeze more in if you really tried!

Seriously, those articles are great, and if you can find another series to do like that after about 5 years of doing demons, you'll have a long-term subscriber.

 

[James Jacobs]

Stats for demon princes are an interesting beast. For the Demonomicon articles, I'm mostly basing their stats on those done in the Book of Vile Darkness for the exact reason Shemeska cites: that book established the formula.

As for the power level of those stat blocks... I gotta admit that I want to have my cake and eat it too. Statting up demon princes as CR 28 or so creatures really limits their usability for most campaigns that want to feature the "you fight the demon prince" as the final battle to the campaign unless you go into epic levels. It'd be nice if a standard 1st–20th level campaign could end with a big fight against a demon prince, is what I'm saying. At the same time, those demon princes have been around for eons; if they were fragile enough that a group of 20th level characters could take them down, they'da been put down long ago.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the 1st edition concept of demons, devils, and other archfiends having "avatars" that they send to the Material Plane—that it's these avatars that are actually statted up in those old Monster Manuals. Kill the Material Plane avatar and you can put a delay into a demon prince's plans on the Material Plane, but you don't stop them. That way, you can defeat Demogorgon as a capstone to your standard 20-level D&D campaign, yet he's still around out there ready to come back at a later time.

As for the versions of demon princes in the BoVD or the Demonomicon articles being too wimpy... well, maybe it's best to think of these stat blocks instead as "starter demons." The cool thing about monsters in D&D is that it's a relatively simple thing to add a pile of Hit Dice to a criter and make him tougher. No real need even to give them new special abilities (since combats already never last long enoguh for a demon prince to use ALL of his special abilities). Just give Fraz-Urb'luu another 30 hit dice, advance his skills, base attack, saving throws, feats, special attack save DCs, and ability score improvements as appropriate, and presto! Instant Bad Ass to menace your group of 43rd level PCs.

 

[Nightfall]

Frazzy though doesn't need to be that bad ass.

I prefer to mix and match my Orcus' though. BoVD here, ToH there, a few other sources hither and yond....viola.

In any case James, keep up the good work on the Demonicon front. I'm looking forward to getting Dragon #337 soon.

 

[BOZ]

And how do you know for certain that it's only a "very-vocal minority" that feels that way about the stats? Because they don't agree with you?

has anyone besides you and Rip been railing against the inclusion of stats? most seem to either like having the stats or at least not care, and some like having stats but wish they were higher. if any others feel the way you do, they haven't been "very vocal", thus i declared it a minority of vocal folks.

and to clarify my position, i don't care whether or not stats are included since i have not and probably never will run an epic campaign. they are *interesting* to me in an academic sense, but if stats were absent, i wouldn't be in the least bit uspet. so consider me in the 4th camp, please.

since stats are included, that is fine by me. they were definitely included in 1E, but only barely included in 2E. it's been controversial in 3E mostly because no one can really agree how powerful gods and other powers should be. to be honest, i almost agree with you that stats should be skipped, if but for that reason alone.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I always wondered why only Ghosts ever got the "rejuvenation" ability, where they come back even after you kill them, unless you resolve their reason of undeath.

Anyways I think that near-deific creatures, should get an ability like Rejuvenation such that they automatically resurrect after a certain ammount of time, like let's say 666 days.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

has anyone besides you and Rip been railing against the inclusion of stats?

...are those haters still at it!

The usual suspects I see too!

most seem to either like having the stats or at least not care, and some like having stats but wish they were higher. if any others feel the way you do, they haven't been "very vocal", thus i declared it a minority of vocal folks.

If 5% of people play epic games then 5% of Dragon/Dungeon should be epic content. Thats about 3 pages of material per Dragon issue and probably one epic adventure every 6 months or thereabouts.

The stats for the Demon Princes cover approx. 2 pages and we get one such article every 4 issues. Thats the equivalent of half a page per issue.

Added to which, as James himself states, the Demon Princes are designed in and around CR 25-30 so that they can still be used by non-epic campaigns in a sort of 'final boss' capacity. So in some respects they are no more 'epic' than a Great Wyrm Red Dragon for instance.

Yet seemingly we still have to put up with the whining of the haters trying to take away the last vestige of quasi-epic material from starving epic gamers. I SAY THEE NAY!

and to clarify my position, i don't care whether or not stats are included since i have not and probably never will run an epic campaign. they are *interesting* to me in an academic sense, but if stats were absent, i wouldn't be in the least bit uspet. so consider me in the 4th camp, please.

I care. I need something I can get my teeth (or should that be sword*) into!

*+12 naturally.

since stats are included, that is fine by me. they were definitely included in 1E, but only barely included in 2E. it's been controversial in 3E mostly because no one can really agree how powerful gods and other powers should be.

Yes it probably would have been better if they had solidified those rules* from the start, obviously stats for gods being the only logical approach though, the alternative leaving naught but a gaping void.

*Rather than simply just the stats.

to be honest, i almost agree with you that stats should be skipped, if but for that reason alone.

The keyword being almost I trust.

 

[Shade]

Add my vote to the "I want stats for archfiends" option.

As for the power level of those stat blocks... I gotta admit that I want to have my cake and eat it too. Statting up demon princes as CR 28 or so creatures really limits their usability for most campaigns that want to feature the "you fight the demon prince" as the final battle to the campaign unless you go into epic levels. It'd be nice if a standard 1st–20th level campaign could end with a big fight against a demon prince, is what I'm saying. At the same time, those demon princes have been around for eons; if they were fragile enough that a group of 20th level characters could take them down, they'da been put down long ago.

It seems from most of the postings that I've seen is that how people use them, as campaign-ending battles or the end of major epic plotlines. I haven't seen many (actually, any that I can remember) posts about people who simply treat them as "just another demon" to stock dungeon rooms. This seems to be the apparently false assumption by many members of the anti-stat camp.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the 1st edition concept of demons, devils, and other archfiends having "avatars" that they send to the Material Plane—that it's these avatars that are actually statted up in those old Monster Manuals. Kill the Material Plane avatar and you can put a delay into a demon prince's plans on the Material Plane, but you don't stop them. That way, you can defeat Demogorgon as a capstone to your standard 20-level D&D campaign, yet he's still around out there ready to come back at a later time.

That's how I play 'em. I use the stat blocks provided as avatars.

As for the versions of demon princes in the BoVD or the Demonomicon articles being too wimpy... well, maybe it's best to think of these stat blocks instead as "starter demons." The cool thing about monsters in D&D is that it's a relatively simple thing to add a pile of Hit Dice to a criter and make him tougher. No real need even to give them new special abilities (since combats already never last long enoguh for a demon prince to use ALL of his special abilities). Just give Fraz-Urb'luu another 30 hit dice, advance his skills, base attack, saving throws, feats, special attack save DCs, and ability score improvements as appropriate, and presto! Instant Bad Ass to menace your group of 43rd level PCs.

I have a simple solution in my epic campaign. When archfiends are confronted on their home plane, I slap the paragon template on 'em. That places them in the much more palatable (to me) range of CR 35-45.

 

[BOZ]

that's a pretty good way of handling it, Shade.

 

[Dr. Harry]

C'mon Erik, you could squeeze more in if you really tried!

Seriously, those articles are great, and if you can find another series to do like that after about 5 years of doing demons, you'll have a long-term subscriber.

Seconded!

Admittedly, I've been subscribing since #78, but you'd make me happier.

 

[Dr. Harry]

I haven't seen many (actually, any that I can remember) posts about people who simply treat them as "just another demon" to stock dungeon rooms. This seems to be the apparently false assumption by many members of the anti-stat camp.

I don't think that is necessarily a fair statement.

I'm not a magaplaya hater, but I personally find the game more enjoyable at moderate levels of play, and I treat these demon prince types as more of Lovecraftian "forces" (defeat the demons by defeating their plans and cults) than opponents with spells and hit points. I'll still buy the book with stat blocks (and I'm not buying very many books right now), but I'll think of it as a 140-page book instead of a 160-pager.

To have a prince show up, I would use the Dragon articles as a base and write up the power level to fit my own campaign. It is my understanding that epic level action is hard to balance just out of the book and requires more care out of the GM anyway.

I have a simple solution in my epic campaign. When archfiends are confronted on their home plane, I slap the paragon template on 'em. That places them in the much more palatable (to me) range of CR 35-45.

Good idea for that. I don't have my stuff with me. Where is the paragon template, please?