D&D 5E Fighter Action Surge Change

Hm, you can totally houserule that the fighter might take his action surge to accomplish an additional action in a dense situation imho, given that this additional action is something that does not take more than 6 seconds comparable to your normal attack action.

Could be dash, could be break down a door, lift a gate or whatever needs to be done quickly.

And btw your examples in your initial post regarding indomitable answer your question partially. The fighter does not get charmed that easy if he uses this. Interesting RP possibilities here.
 

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I guess it's my own DM style influencing things here, as I use rounds in tense out of combat things as well.
I'll use turns out of combat, but if the action is that 'tense,' it's combat. It may be a combat where no one has tried to kill eachother, yet, or where the 'enemy' isn't conventional....

Anyway, another idea on the fire: What about Action Surge allowing a re-roll on any action with a physical component? Maybe don't even limit it to the fighter, when an ally blows a roll maybe the same surge of action that serves him well in battle could pull a friend's fat out of the fire?
 

"... basically everything that an action can do without extra attack."
" in addition to combat maneuvers like push or grapple. "

You can't do that per sage advice. If you use an action to create attack actions, each of those attack actions can be used for push or grapple however, if you are granting an additional attack, dash, etc... those are not actually attack actions they are bonus actions and are invalid for push or grapple. This is a huge nerf.

"or any other non-spellcasting action." sure put some extra nerf in there for the Eldritch Knight while your nerfing the fighter.

It seems like if your goal it to reduce attacks so that you can add more uses for the same total attacks, double your uses of action surge and simply put one additional line on it. "May not be used for extra attack"

If your taking a hardline on spell casting then it appears your Nerfing Eldritch Knights to prevent casters from multi-classing into fighters for the extra attack. Which by design is intended. Multi-classing in 5e is designed to primarily be a 2-3 level dip in most cases so the majority of classes provide something interesting by the 2nd level worth a 2 level dip. No one would ever multi-class into fighter without action surge, they would take cleric instead. If that's your goal, nerfing fighters to reduce multi-classing then sure you have done it but you have not helped fighters out of combat and if the "net" change is equal then you are reducing their emergency DPR front loading ability for important targets to a watered down over time ability that is only useful if they survive the rounds needed to level it out and after paladins and casters have already unloaded and killed larger enemies.

Basically in my opinion this is a horrible change all around. If you want out of combat ability I think you should take a different route. Advantages to speed have already been given to monks and barbarians so it should be something different from that.
 

I'll use turns out of combat, but if the action is that 'tense,' it's combat. It may be a combat where no one has tried to kill eachother, yet, or where the 'enemy' isn't conventional....

Anyway, another idea on the fire: What about Action Surge allowing a re-roll on any action with a physical component? Maybe don't even limit it to the fighter, when an ally blows a roll maybe the same surge of action that serves him well in battle could pull a friend's fat out of the fire?

I'm not sure. I do like the "extra"ness of it actually giving you an extra thing. A reroll just doesn't have the same weight.

"... basically everything that an action can do without extra attack."
" in addition to combat maneuvers like push or grapple. "

You can't do that per sage advice. If you use an action to create attack actions, each of those attack actions can be used for push or grapple however, if you are granting an additional attack, dash, etc... those are not actually attack actions they are bonus actions and are invalid for push or grapple. This is a huge nerf.

"or any other non-spellcasting action." sure put some extra nerf in there for the Eldritch Knight while your nerfing the fighter.

It seems like if your goal it to reduce attacks so that you can add more uses for the same total attacks, double your uses of action surge and simply put one additional line on it. "May not be used for extra attack"

If your taking a hardline on spell casting then it appears your Nerfing Eldritch Knights to prevent casters from multi-classing into fighters for the extra attack. Which by design is intended. Multi-classing in 5e is designed to primarily be a 2-3 level dip in most cases so the majority of classes provide something interesting by the 2nd level worth a 2 level dip. No one would ever multi-class into fighter without action surge, they would take cleric instead. If that's your goal, nerfing fighters to reduce multi-classing then sure you have done it but you have not helped fighters out of combat and if the "net" change is equal then you are reducing their emergency DPR front loading ability for important targets to a watered down over time ability that is only useful if they survive the rounds needed to level it out and after paladins and casters have already unloaded and killed larger enemies.

Basically in my opinion this is a horrible change all around. If you want out of combat ability I think you should take a different route. Advantages to speed have already been given to monks and barbarians so it should be something different from that.

This doesn't interact with bonus actions at all. So some of those things you've mentioned don't really apply. My goal is to give the fighter more uses of action surge so they don't always have to use it for extra attacks; yes, the current fighter can use action surge to dash or dodge, but it's such a large trade at 5th level and above that I've only ever seen it happen once.

The EK still has their "cast a spell, attack as a bonus action" to blend together weapon and spell play. They can also use their action to cast a spell, and then use action surge to make a weapon attack, in addition to the bonus action weapon attack they get from War Magic or Improved War Magic. I haven't ever seen an EK use action surge to cast two spells, but that's probably because the only spells I've seen them cast are defensive buffs and AoEs when swarmed. If it's really important that they be able to cast with their action surge, I could make that a class ability or part of War Magic.

I actually hate when casters pick up Fighter 2 to use action surge. To lower level characters, this ends up the same. It only "hurts" casters and people with Extra Attack. It takes away a Nova and replaces it with sustained power. If I can be convinced that the fighter really needs a nova option,

As for paladins, I've already limited their smite to 1/round. I'm strongly considering changing smite to be a bonus action, like their smite spells, because I haven't liked how it works out in play. Casters have the bonus action spell interaction clause that limits them from blowing all of their spell slots in one day. I don't like it when combat encounters are over in the first round; it's not the kind of game I run, so I've been working at reducing novas. My caster changes are going to likely include switching them to short-rest recovery with 1/3rd of the spell power to reduce novas.
 

I'm not sure. I do like the "extra"ness of it actually giving you an extra thing. A reroll just doesn't have the same weight.
A re-roll for the fighter, himself, like indomitable could be nearly meaningless if the chance of success is low. But if he can jump in and save an ally who has a good check from an inopportune failure, it could help.

I can't really think of good example beyond pulling the rogue out of the line of fire of a trap or catching an ally who failed a climb check, though...
 
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I'm not sure. I do like the "extra"ness of it actually giving you an extra thing. A reroll just doesn't have the same weight.

This doesn't interact with bonus actions at all. So some of those things you've mentioned don't really apply. My goal is to give the fighter more uses of action surge so they don't always have to use it for extra attacks; yes, the current fighter can use action surge to dash or dodge, but it's such a large trade at 5th level and above that I've only ever seen it happen once.
So I may not be clear here but Sage Advice (AKA The designers of the game clarifying there rules) said you can only substitute grapple and push for an attack used as part of an attack action. Since your changing it from an action to an attack granted link an action you can't use it to grapple or push.
This months pod cast where they break down what I am saying, start at 15:30 to get right to my point but feel free listen to more.
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/dan-telfer-nerd-poker

The EK still has their "cast a spell, attack as a bonus action" to blend together weapon and spell play. They can also use their action to cast a spell, and then use action surge to make a weapon attack, in addition to the bonus action weapon attack they get from War Magic or Improved War Magic. I haven't ever seen an EK use action surge to cast two spells, but that's probably because the only spells I've seen them cast are defensive buffs and AoEs when swarmed. If it's really important that they be able to cast with their action surge, I could make that a class ability or part of War Magic.
I have seen some players use action surge to cast two spells and your not having seen them but as defense is a mater of play style and spell selection. So basically your punishing people that don't play the way you want/expect. That's a nurf not just on the class but player creativity. Making it an exception goes back to my point that the only purpose of doing this is to prevent/punish multi-classing but we can come back to this in the next part.

I actually hate when casters pick up Fighter 2 to use action surge. To lower level characters, this ends up the same. It only "hurts" casters and people with Extra Attack. It takes away a Nova and replaces it with sustained power. If I can be convinced that the fighter really needs a nova option,
If you don't like multi-classing don't allow multi-classing don't allow it then limit there creativity or punish there choose by removing the reason the picked it. As I said, a 1-3 level dip is how multi-classing works best in 5e especially for casters because they lose high level spells and possible spell slots (in the case of Fighters and other non-casters) on top of forcing later class progression. So big loss needs to receive a big reward or multi-classing is always a gimp. If your only allowing multi-classing as a gimp then you should not allow it at all since it will only hurt the players and make play painful.

As for paladins, I've already limited their smite to 1/round. I'm strongly considering changing smite to be a bonus action, like their smite spells, because I haven't liked how it works out in play. Casters have the bonus action spell interaction clause that limits them from blowing all of their spell slots in one day. I don't like it when combat encounters are over in the first round; it's not the kind of game I run, so I've been working at reducing novas. My caster changes are going to likely include switching them to short-rest recovery with 1/3rd of the spell power to reduce novas.
I get this from your design. You seem to want your players to suffer. If they are good with that, sure, draw out combat by reducing nova. But if that's the case I hope all your encounters are multiple smaller enemies because increasing fight length by reducing player nova into slower damage means single targets that do a lot of damage get more rounds and will do a great deal more damage to groups. This is a good way to TPK your group because you have decimated balance as intended. Again if the players are ok with longer combat and you use roughly a number of enemies equal to the party to design your encounters for a gritty hard fight style that will be fine but if the players didn't agree to this type of campaign they may feel like they showed up to play a fun heroic campaign but instead feel like they are being drug through the mud. By this I am guessing your also playing a low magic campaign and your more combat then story due to the amount of time combat takes. Right?
 

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I have seen some players use action surge to cast two spells and your not having seen them but as defense is a mater of play style and spell selection. So basically your punishing people that don't play the way you want/expect. That's a nurf not just on the class but player creativity. Making it an exception goes back to my point that the only purpose of doing this is to prevent/punish multi-classing but we can come back to this in the next part.

If you don't like multi-classing don't allow multi-classing don't allow it then limit there creativity or punish there choose by removing the reason the picked it. As I said, a 1-3 level dip is how multi-classing works best in 5e especially for casters because they lose high level spells and possible spell slots (in the case of Fighters and other non-casters) on top of forcing later class progression. So big loss needs to receive a big reward or multi-classing is always a gimp. If your only allowing multi-classing as a gimp then you should not allow it at all since it will only hurt the players and make play painful.

I get this from your design. You seem to want your players to suffer. If they are good with that, sure, draw out combat by reducing nova. But if that's the case I hope all your encounters are multiple smaller enemies because increasing fight length by reducing player nova into slower damage means single targets that do a lot of damage get more rounds and will do a great deal more damage to groups. This is a good way to TPK your group because you have decimated balance as intended. Again if the players are ok with longer combat and you use roughly a number of enemies equal to the party to design your encounters for a gritty hard fight style that will be fine but if the players didn't agree to this type of campaign they may feel like they showed up to play a fun heroic campaign but instead feel like they are being drug through the mud. By this I am guessing your also playing a low magic campaign and your more combat then story due to the amount of time combat takes. Right?

I disagree. Removing the option to not allow it to be used for spellcasting is not punishing your players, unless you remove it after they have it.

If he (and I) don't want to allow spellcasters to use Action Surge to cast spells, and that rule is known before you choose to multiclass, then it's just a rule. Personally, I don't like the crazy amount of attacks it gives a fighter as written either. So it's very similar to the OP proposal. I did include several actions, but not all of them. I still want the Rogue's ability to be different.

From a game design prospect, I think that the RAW is just fine. It's not breaking anything. From an in-game-world design, though, it just doesn't fit my world. So it's changed.

Changing it isn't punishing anybody, nor is it limiting their creativity. It just means the options are different than the RAW. If you felt that the options weren't optimal for what you want to do, then just don't multiclass. But that doesn't mean that everybody will feel that way.

Multiclassing exists in my campaign from a character development perspective, not as a "game within the game" to find the best combinations, etc. although you're welcome to do that.

It's specifically for characters (people) that change their path in life. Perhaps they grew up an orphan in the streets and survived by being a thief. Then they meet a mentor who takes them under their wing to train them as a wizard. Some characters in our campaign have three or more classes. It's all based on the story of the character (written by the player over the course of the campaign). It's not because they say, "if I train to be a fighter for a little while then I'll gain the ability to cast two spells in 6 seconds, instead of one."

That's because within the game world itself, "action surge" isn't a thing. It's just a representation of those periods in time where a well-trained fighter gets the upper hand for a moment, and gets in an extra strike. Casting spells in my campaign take longer to cast, and longer for the magical energies to "recharge" to cast another spell. Therefore, finding an opportunity to make an extra strike wouldn't help the spellcaster.

These aren't the only abilities that I've changed, and they aren't changed specifically because of multiclassing. But it will obviously affect what you might be able to do if you do multi class.

You're correct about players agreeing on a type of campaign. That's the case anytime you are sitting down and not running the RAW. I have a pretty hefty book of house rules, really it's the PHB rewritten for my campaign. So you'll know what you're getting into if you decide to play. On the other hand, my "session 0" for a public game is usually a quick adventure with pregenerated characters so you can see how the rules work, rather than just reading them. I find that most people who tell me they won't like a particular rule change, find that it makes sense and works well in the context of the other changes. More importantly, I'm hopeful that the changes allow me to run a game that they find fun and really enjoy, and want to continue playing.

In my campaigns, combats can take longer, but that's for a lot of reasons, not just lack of the ability to nova. The number one reason is that I think it's absurd that so many combats are finished in less than 30 seconds of in-game time. Also, I would place RAW with their special abilities to be closer to a super-heroic campaign, than a heroic campaign myself. My baseline for a "heroic RPG" is AD&D (1e). Everything since then has been piling on more and stronger abilities. I'm OK with a lot of them, but many need a bit of reigning in to work with the feel of the campaign I've been running for 30ish years. Combats also take longer in my campaign because AC is typically better than RAW and armor provides damage resistance too.

But combat itself is a pretty small part of the campaign overall. In the current adventure, other than the possibility of random encounters, there is only one (expected) combat in the first third of the adventure. That's planned because they are specifically hunting a monster. They will have plenty of opportunity to plan that attack, and they will need it because it's very tough. A good chance of several PCs dying, and I suppose under the right circumstances it could be a TPK.

The second third has no real combat encounters at all (just nuisances), and the final third will have maybe three. Those are tough, and intended to be. They'll need to fight smart to survive.

After that there is a potential encounter at the end of the adventure, but it's pretty much guaranteed death if they are stupid enough to continue, and that should be pretty obvious to all of them. I anticipate each third of the adventure to take at least three sessions, so maybe 4 combats over 12 or more sessions. Plus the potential for a couple of random encounters.

However, some of the other potential directions they PCs can head in have a lot of potential, even probable, combat. (The initial adventure is an introduction to the campaign). It's all dependent on their decisions.
 


ClaytonCross said:
So I may not be clear here but Sage Advice (AKA The designers of the game clarifying there rules) said you can only substitute grapple and push for an attack used as part of an attack action. Since your changing it from an action to an attack granted link an action you can't use it to grapple or push.
This months pod cast where they break down what I am saying, start at 15:30 to get right to my point but feel free listen to more.
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/dan-telfer-nerd-poker


I have seen some players use action surge to cast two spells and your not having seen them but as defense is a mater of play style and spell selection. So basically your punishing people that don't play the way you want/expect. That's a nurf not just on the class but player creativity. Making it an exception goes back to my point that the only purpose of doing this is to prevent/punish multi-classing but we can come back to this in the next part.


If you don't like multi-classing don't allow multi-classing don't allow it then limit there creativity or punish there choose by removing the reason the picked it. As I said, a 1-3 level dip is how multi-classing works best in 5e especially for casters because they lose high level spells and possible spell slots (in the case of Fighters and other non-casters) on top of forcing later class progression. So big loss needs to receive a big reward or multi-classing is always a gimp. If your only allowing multi-classing as a gimp then you should not allow it at all since it will only hurt the players and make play painful.


I get this from your design. You seem to want your players to suffer. If they are good with that, sure, draw out combat by reducing nova. But if that's the case I hope all your encounters are multiple smaller enemies because increasing fight length by reducing player nova into slower damage means single targets that do a lot of damage get more rounds and will do a great deal more damage to groups. This is a good way to TPK your group because you have decimated balance as intended. Again if the players are ok with longer combat and you use roughly a number of enemies equal to the party to design your encounters for a gritty hard fight style that will be fine but if the players didn't agree to this type of campaign they may feel like they showed up to play a fun heroic campaign but instead feel like they are being drug through the mud. By this I am guessing your also playing a low magic campaign and your more combat then story due to the amount of time combat takes. Right?

Lay off the personal attacks.

As for the "formula" of the rules, sure, I'll reword it. But that's not going to make you like it any better. I don't understand why people can argue so aggressively when someone posts something they don't like. I thank you for saying your piece, but saying things like "you seem to want your players to suffer" is entirely uncalled for.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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