D&D General Fighter progression, need help

[Sacrosanct]

So I’m doing a bunch of data analysis of fighter comparisons through the editions. But I need help because I’m not that familiar with 4e, and want a fair and accurate comparison (I’m looking at the books, but since I’m not that familiar, I’ll probably miss something). What I’m looking for are the following, broken down for each level:

Avg HP
Typical AC
Typical To hit bonus
Avg typical damage per round

Assumptions for each edition: str 16, dex 12, con 14. Long sword and shield build.

What’s throwing me off the most is looking at powers and how that impacts damage. At level 1, there are dailys to add 3W+str +con damage, and others that do 2W plus those two ability scores, and at wills that add extra damage, etc. so broken out on an average attack (factoring X amount of encounters per day that last Y amount of rounds each), would it be fair to say that on average, a fighter at level 1 can do 2W + str for each attack? Oh! What about the extra d8? So 2W+d8+STR? And what about other higher levels?

See, this is why I need help to be fair lol. 3e has been a chore by itself, so admittedly the combination of not knowing the system and seeing all of the options makes trying to do the 4e build for each level extremely daunting.

 

[Garthanos]

So I’m doing a bunch of data analysis of fighter comparisons through the editions. But I need help because I’m not that familiar with 4e, and want a fair and accurate comparison (I’m looking at the books, but since I’m not that familiar, I’ll probably miss something). What I’m looking for are the following, broken down for each level:

Avg HP
Typical AC
Typical To hit bonus
Avg typical damage per round

Assumptions for each edition: str 16, dex 12, con 14. Long sword and shield build.

Just to make your stats harder to compare the 4e a fighter can do much more damage depending on whether the enemy pays attention to his mark or ignores it. If they ignore it then depending on choices the fighter can be closer to a striker in damage its quite significant difference. And it depends on how many enemies he gets adjacent rather like a wizard depends on how clumped the enemy is does a lot more damage. Level one has the fewest adjustments but even then. So you look at a power that allows him to rush across the battle and mark enemies as he goes and you think well how does that contribute to his damage... it definitely can.

Are you comparing Nova ability not just average for instance the controllable Nova (not random fluke) is higher in 4e I would bet than many editions too.

A 4e character is comparable at level 1 to a 5e character at level 5 in broad general terms and each two levels after that in 4e are only 1 in 5e. This is based on the tier flavor text but also a few other things.

If you want to compare comparable level between the editions I suggest perhaps Name Level from 1e and 2e to Paragon Level (in 4e and 5e)

Don't bother comparing a level 1, 4e character to levels under 4 or maybe 5 its pretty much not meant to.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Well, I’m not doing a direct comparison analysis of a 4e fighter vs an AD&D fighter. That wouldn’t have much value because it’s apples to oranges. There are two primary types of analysis I’m doing: how each edition rises in power at each level in comparison as a ratio, and how each edition rises in power against a typical martial based opponent balanced as a medium/challenging encounter for one PC at the respective level the PC is

 

[Garthanos]

4e has a slayer fighter type...that is closer to the 5e fighter in many ways.

The 5e cavalier is a type of fighter who has abilities closer to the 4e Weaponmaster Sword and Board (core defender fighter)
... but I bet running he numbers higher damage and NO nova control abilities.

I think you will fiind 5e is higher damage for fighters. AND get more hit points every level in levels where they are somewhat comparable because of CON... in 4e con contributes like 4 levels worth at level 1

4e players may tell you that the standard sword and board fighters job isnt doing the damage thing but he really can do it anyway. There is a power brash strike makes you a tempting target in order to do more damage (based on Con.. but its not typical of Sword and Board)

Its fairly common in 4e to have a standard fighter with Str Con Wis .... where Wisdom ends up turning up the damage and already does a little at level one on opportunity attacks. Wary fighter lets my heavy armored character have good initiative and bonuses on opportunity attacks and those mean more damage too.


Stats for the 4e character at this point are better than the ones you are using too maybe closer to a 5e character after an ASI

There are minor house rules in this giving him more skills.

Somebody else may tell you what a "normal" sword and board fighter looks like but
the exact build has masses of differences


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Pieter, level 1
Human, Fighter
Build: Guardian Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: One-handed Weapon Talent
Human Power Selection: Bonus At-Will Power


FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 11, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8.


STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 14, Dex 11, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8.




AC: 19 Fort: 17 Reflex: 13 Will: 13
HP: 29 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 7


TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +5, Athletics +7, Intimidate +4, Diplomacy +4, Heal +7


UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -2, Arcana, Bluff -1, Dungeoneering +2, History, Insight +2, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion, Stealth -2, Streetwise -1, Thievery -2


FEATS
Human: Focused Superiority (wisdom damage on an opportunity attack)
Level 1: Cruel Cut Style (handy for using cleave to give em a bleeding wound)


POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Cleave (damage adjacent enemy or if none are adjacent deal strength ongoing damage to the original target because of Cruel cut style - at a slightly higher level a feat will also make the both enemies hit by it marked)

Fighter Combat Challenge : extra basic attack for an enemy who ignore your mark.
Fighter at-will 1: Threatening Rush (mark all adjacent enemies can be done on charge)

Fighter at-will 1: Tide of Iron (push an enemy back and move into their space safely)


Fighter encounter 1: Goading Maneuver (2W) mark target and up to 2 more adjacent plus some shifting movement.
Fighter daily 1: Villain's Menace(2W) plus +2/+4 bonus against the target every attack against that enemy for the rest of the battle.




ITEMS
Scale Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Longsword, Heavy Shield
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

 

[Garthanos]

There are two primary types of analysis I’m doing: how each edition rises in power at each level in comparison as a ratio, and how each edition rises in power against a typical martial based opponent balanced as a medium/challenging encounter for one PC at the respective level the PC is

In 4e to double your hit points it will take many many levels... and it happens in 1 level in 1e... is that the kind of comparison?

 

[Garthanos]

For adversary one might use at level +0 easy +1 mild +2 medium +3 hard +4 very hard *50/50 tpk but it depends on how optimizing your players are... mine do not optimise so I go with lower.

 

[FrogReaver]

So I’m doing a bunch of data analysis of fighter comparisons through the editions. But I need help because I’m not that familiar with 4e, and want a fair and accurate comparison (I’m looking at the books, but since I’m not that familiar, I’ll probably miss something). What I’m looking for are the following, broken down for each level:

Avg HP
Typical AC
Typical To hit bonus
Avg typical damage per round

Assumptions for each edition: str 16, dex 12, con 14. Long sword and shield build.

What’s throwing me off the most is looking at powers and how that impacts damage. At level 1, there are dailys to add 3W+str +con damage, and others that do 2W plus those two ability scores, and at wills that add extra damage, etc. so broken out on an average attack (factoring X amount of encounters per day that last Y amount of rounds each), would it be fair to say that on average, a fighter at level 1 can do 2W + str for each attack? Oh! What about the extra d8? So 2W+d8+STR? And what about other higher levels?

See, this is why I need help to be fair lol. 3e has been a chore by itself, so admittedly the combination of not knowing the system and seeing all of the options makes trying to do the 4e build for each level extremely daunting.

IMO, you'd be best served leaving 4e out.

4e is a totally unique edition.

HP is max hp for a fight and doesn't try to pretend to be daily survivability. That's broken out into healing surges - which can be used after a short rest if memory serves (short rests are super short and can basically be obtained after any fight).

Essentially it's more or less assumed you'll be near max hp at the start of most fights but will have an overall lower hp max than you would in other editions.

Damage is different too - you don't scales by extra attacks (typically). You scale by modifier and weapon dice damage with encounter/daily powers being the drivers of this.

Then there's also the treadmill effect of - if you double your damage and survivability numbers, does an equal level opponent keep up or outperform you, etc.

I can't remember all these tidbits after so many years.

 

[FrogReaver]

In 4e to double your hit points it will take many many levels... and it happens in 1 level in 1e... is that the kind of comparison?

But how to compare hp + healing surges to simply hp in other editions?

 

[Garthanos]

HP is max hp for a fight and doesn't try to pretend to be daily survivability.

Then compare within a single fight or show that difference by mappin/graphing multi-fights

You could map it over multiple fights for a more extensive comparison showing the fade throughout an extensive workday or pick a number of fights in a workday... these show how the other editions are actually harder in some ways to analyse survivability (the fade nor number of fights are not a guaranteed either)

You could average the other edition over multiple fights to have something comparable in a sense but a graph would demonstrate it better.

But how to compare hp + healing surges to simply hp in other editions?

Perhaps by ignoring carry over between fights? I know not always something you can do. But if you assume a combination of 5 minute work days = Or to put it nicer choosing to rest when your hit points are down (sometimes with magic huts and rope tricks and similar - magic for the win) or cheap common cure light wounds wands or healing potions (both I seen in 1e and the latter was I hear common in much of 3.x play).

In other words if you want to decide ability of a single combatant to survive in single fight vs the adversaries he faces that is entirely comparable.... a 4e combatants ability is consistent throughout the day it is more erratic in other editions depending on a lot of other factors.

When you are beat in an encounter in 4e it will generally be by a tough encounter not some wandering minion like adversary exploiting your daily fade process (there is still some and loss of dailies and healing surges can influence things but they are less prominent due in part to encounter powers). Reminds me of how Gygax when arguing against critical hits was arguing hit points were a tool to prevent ignoble death by a random mooks arrow which would never happen to Conan. 4e healing surges deliver on that.

 

[Garthanos]

AND get more hit points every level in levels where they are somewhat comparable because of CON... in 4e con contributes like 4 levels worth at level 1

This is a closer estimate than I thought due to level compression, in 4e you get 2HD (because levels are spread out) and a 5e characters CON is more important and they get 1HD + CON. In 4e your class is more important than your CON to the end result. But Fighters at flavor comparable levels will generally have comparable hit points.There is another survivability quotient there are a lot of fighter abilities which give some builds of fighter lots of THP, it probably makes up for not getting raw hit point bonus bonus from CON -for fighters of that flavor.

This gives me a 4e house rule in 4e if you wanted Constitution to have a higher impact on hit points... Every other level characters get CON instead of a number based on class. There might be some minor impact on character design because CON is now a bit more important to every class.

The main gist is with levels converted 2 for 1 and starting at level 5, it might be surprising how comparable things are.

 

[MichaelSomething]

But how to compare hp + healing surges to simply hp in other editions?

Are you comparing Fighter to Fighter or Fighter with a Cleric to Fighter with a Cleric? Healing Surges will give a 4E Fighter the edge but a wand of cure light wounds can make the 3E Fighter eternally go on.

 

[Sacrosanct]

So what I"m seeing here (and confirming my suspicions by looking through the books), is that I shouldn't even bother. It would be like comparing D&D editions with WFRP or something, since the rules in 4e make it very much different from previous D&D editions, that there is no real way to do an analysis? Every other edition I can plot out "here is how a fighter gains in these categories compared to an equivalent monstrous opponent", but I can't really do that in 4e based on how the AEDU system/healing surges/power system works? 3e was challenging I will admit, when you start factoring in things like feats. But I'm lost when how to approach 4e. If you're saying it's not really possible to do it fairly, then I appreciate that for saving me a lot of time

 

[generic]

Short rests in 4e are 5 minutes.

5 minutes.

Furthermore, because all character progression is based on a chart that spans across all classes, it might be best to leave 4e alone.

 

[generic]

I actually like 4e, but given how encounter powers work, and the way healing surges function (don't forget that a 4e long rest is 6 hours, and you can take one twice per day), it might be best to skip 4e.

 

[Garthanos]

So what I"m seeing here (and confirming my suspicions by looking through the books), is that I shouldn't even bother. It would be like comparing D&D editions with WFRP or something, since the rules in 4e make it very much different from previous D&D editions, that there is no real way to do an analysis? Every other edition I can plot out "here is how a fighter gains in these categories compared to an equivalent monstrous opponent", but I can't really do that in 4e based on how the AEDU system/healing surges/power system works? 3e was challenging I will admit, when you start factoring in things like feats. But I'm lost when how to approach 4e. If you're saying it's not really possible to do it fairly, then I appreciate that for saving me a lot of time

Its tougher but maybe not for the reasons you think (surges mostly only impact if you have a healer spending an action doing a second wind isnt as efficient as marking the enemy and or cutting down the enemy)

Feats have the same wild ride in 4e as you had in 3e. My example above now has an enhanced cleave because of one. But fighters in 4e always have feats ... they do not always in 5e how have you decided to use that? Which subclass of 5e fighter are you using? that Cavalier has similar situational class features.

Tactical Choices
Does he use a daily? If he is feeling pressed he will pull it out.
Does the enemy stand beating on the fighter or try to get to the squishies = the first thing I mentioned can have a big impact. Is this one enemy on one fighter and No squishies to defend? this makes some of his abilities a lot less valuable and others more so and very much can make his damage output less in many cases.

White room analysis beats its head on a class with abilities that are situational or build dependent.

I adjusted my example Fighter above to have descriptions of what the abilities did if you are still interested. He is versatile enough but still built to be mostly a defender.

When you try and compare more advanced levels of 4e fighter it will only get harder as each fighter may be very different. Not just because of feats but because of power selection.

 

[Garthanos]

I actually like 4e, but given how encounter powers work, and the way healing surges function (don't forget that a 4e long rest is 6 hours, and you can take one twice per day

No only once per day...

• Duration: An extended rest is at least 6 hours long. (could be 8 or 10)
• Once per day: After you finish an extended rest, you have to wait 12 hours before you can begin another one.

https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Extended_rest

its kind of weird in a 24 hours span you might squeeze in 2 if they bridge across 2 days
more of an anomaly than some sort of power up.

 

[Garthanos]

Short rests in 4e are 5 minutes.

And? its called catching your breath after an exertion not a lunch break

 

[Garthanos]

I actually like 4e, but given how encounter powers work

Encounter powers do not create much variation because they generally will always be used - they can be assumed used once each fight.

 

[Garthanos]

Action points are another point of variation the fighter in 5e has an Action surge once a short rest/long rest ... the 4e fighter gets an action point every other fight -- either may or may not choose to use it on a given fight.

Honestly not sure how you can fairly compare the 5e fighter simplistically with earlier editions either.

 

[Garthanos]

Furthermore, because all character progression is based on a chart that spans across all classes.

Not sure what that has to do with his comparison ...