Fighter vs. Barbarian

[StreamOfTheSky]

Just wanted to start a discussion on how the two compare. Notably, in 3E I was accustomed to Barbarian being the class for doing the most damage, albeit being fragile and reckless (yes, even with the d12). In Pathfinder, it seems that it starts out that way, but around mid levels Fighter overtakes Barb for damage dealing and dwarfs it by 20.

Just compare mirror copies, each with a two-handed weapon (the best possible set up for the Barb; Fighter gets the same static bonuses to damage regardless of the weapon, Barbarian misses out on the extra kick from rage's str boost being multiplied). A level 20 Barb rages and gets +4 to hit and +6 damage. A level 20 Fighter all day every day gets +6 to hit and +8 damage (Greater Weapon Focus, WF, Greater Weapon Specialization, WS, and Weapon Training +4). The Fighter likewise has a better CMB for any maneuver he can use his weapon with.

I don't mind, my current Barb is a Intimidate-focused build that wouldn't be nearly as effective with Fighter, for instance. It's just a little jarring to see Barbs dethroned. I consider the lower AC and higher hp to be a wash mechanically, so Barbs have a few skills and some unique rage powers as the only real advantage now, it seems.

 

[Mojo_Rat]

I just had my barbarian die at level 8 due to an encounter we were supposed to talk to not fight. But using average hp she had 100 ish +16 to hit before PA or buffs and enlarged was doing around 3d6 +21 ish damage. It was fun but there were a few bits I think a fighter would have done beter.

AC is one bit for a little less damage the fig hers ac would have been 4-5 pts higher.
Combat options being the other, the ability to control your environment and hit things is better than just hitting things.

That said I had tone down the optimization a little to keeping in line with the rest of the party and can think of a few barbarian builds that would have at this level spiked the damage .


The general consensus though is if damage is your main goal fighters are the kings in pf though this doesn't make me not want to play a barb and I will do so 3 or 4 characters from now with my new ideas.

 

[pawsplay]

Barbarians are more skillful characters (more points, Raging Climber etc) but are not stealthy like the Ranger. They are obstacle defeaters, who may be variously capable at dealing with walls, swimming, darkness, physical barriers, traps, and so forth.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Barbs have some optimized power builds. I'm dealing with one right now. The Inuvulnerable Rager is pretty powerful.

But Fighters seem like overall they are capable of being the top damage dealer. That Two-hander path is nutso for damage.

 

[ruemere]

Rage powers make Barbarians much more versatile than Fighters. For example, the Barbarian PC in my party specializes in locking down enemies using grapple... He does a lot of damage, too, but when the party needs to shut down BBEG he does just that.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Mojo_Rat]

How does that make them ersitil?

The barbarian can be made to do one thing well, which is good. But they generally cannot do several things well.

The great thing with the fighter is they can do good damage and be efficient with more than one combat maneuver. Someone who can trip drag and bull rush and hurt the enemy is more versatile for combat. As a previous poser said though, barbarians with the skills can bypass obstacles which is nice.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Barbarians can specialize in a few things, like Intimidate, and have Acrobatics and Perception, which is a plus (a plus 3 over Fighter, to be exact). Of course, Fighters are much more adept tumblers than Barbarians in general since they get check penalties reduced and eventually can roll out in full plate.

Fighters pretty clearly seem better at hitting, damage, combat maneuvers, tanking, and dealing with unique defenses (more potent with back up weapons, more likely to have spare feats to boost a secondary fighting style like archery, later on get feats to tear through DR like a hot knife through butter...). In other words, better than Barbarian at every single aspect of combat. They're also fairly "solid." You don't have to worry about a Fighter going unconscious or getting hit with a calm emotions and suddenly going from 30 hp to dead. You don't have to use up very limited daily resources to dish out the heavy damage, and worry about when to begin/end rage, cause "man it would suck to end it in the middle of a fight."

The Rage powers are interesting, many of them are worse than a feat, in some cases blatantly worse than a feat (anything that gives you access to a feat while raging, for example). But then there are some generally great ones. The Intimidating Glare one is decent just for intimidate as a move action, though the need to be adjacent can be annoyingly limiting. The followup rage power Terrifying Howl, gives you some genuine save-or-suck/battlefield control power.

Out of core, APG magnifies the trend. A lot of the rage powers ubersuck, but a few (mostly higher level ones) stand out as much better than a feat. Come And Get Me is like 3E Robilar's Gambit (widely considered a great feat), even including the level requirement, except waaaaaay better, because you get to make your AoO FIRST (what better way to boost your AC than killing people before they can hurt you?). Not sure if Flesh Wound is overpowered, but if you actually think the Rogue's Defensive Roll advanced talent is a worthwhile class feature (I don't), it surely is to you. It incorporates armor check penalty on your saving throw, that is its only downside. Other than that, it is literally superior to Defensive Roll in every possible aspect. And is available starting at the same level, 10th.

So it's really hard to judge the rage powers. There's a handful (not enough to fill up all your rage powers gained 1-20) that are just plain amazing or at least "something good that a feat can't get you." And then the rest are meh. Also, most of the best rage powers come from APG, and if you're adding that in...several of the Fighter kits were much bigger boosts than any of the Barbarian ones. Two-handed Fighter got a fair damage boost for instance. By RAW, Mobile Fighter gets Rapid Attack AND Weapon training 2-4, and abilities to multiattack on a move regardless. The most powerful barbarian variant basically just got better DR at the expense of even more AC (no Uncanny Dodge = effectively worse AC in many situations for the more lightly armored Barbarian; Fighters just put on Fullplate). None really helped add to damage dealing. Which sounds kinda selfish and single-minded, "why didn't the splat let my barb do even MORE damage?" ...except that they did add several alt Fighter classes to up thier damage.

 

[ruemere]

How does that make them ersitil?

The barbarian can be made to do one thing well, which is good. But they generally cannot do several things well.

The great thing with the fighter is they can do good damage and be efficient with more than one combat maneuver. Someone who can trip drag and bull rush and hurt the enemy is more versatile for combat. As a previous poser said though, barbarians with the skills can bypass obstacles which is nice.

Strength Surge + Intimidating Glare. Thanks to these two powers the Barbarian PC shines at controlling BBEGs.

"A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell."

This particular Barbarian reaches DC 46 (+ spell level) on this check. Of course, it lasts for a single round only, but I have yet to see an opponent to last longer, especially with things like Aura of Justice flying around.

As for the Intimidating Glare, this is like free -2 to saves of your opponent. Synergize it with Feeblemind and you have one dead spellcaster.


Of course, for pure damage the Fighter is going to be better, but at the level we're currently playing (13th), shutting down casters takes priority (the Paladin and the Shadowdancer with artifact sword can mop up the floor with physicals, in case of serious opposition summoned Huge Elementals do the job nicely, too).

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Mojo_Rat]

Strength Surge + Intimidating Glare. Thanks to these two powers the Barbarian PC shines at controlling BBEGs.

"A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell."

This particular Barbarian reaches DC 46 (+ spell level) on this check. Of course, it lasts for a single round only, but I have yet to see an opponent to last longer, especially with things like Aura of Justice flying around.

As for the Intimidating Glare, this is like free -2 to saves of your opponent. Synergize it with Feeblemind and you have one dead spellcaster.

Of course, for pure damage the Fighter is going to be better, but at the level we're currently playing (13th), shutting down casters takes priority (the Paladin and the Shadowdancer with artifact sword can mop up the floor with physicals, in case of serious opposition summoned Huge Elementals do the job nicely, too).

Regards,
Ruemere

The above is all great for the barbarian, and makes it fun to play. I like the class a lot. But doing two things well isn't versatile. Though it is grat if those two things come into play a lot.

 

[Glade Riven]

Notably, in 3E I was accustomed to Barbarian being the class for doing the most damage, albeit being fragile and reckless (yes, even with the d12).

Obviously you haven't seen Kullan Longbeard. Dwarf Barbarian, started with a 20 CON thanks to lucky rolls, never rolls below a 10 for HP each level...He's not optimised, just lucky at the HP rolls.

Barbarian seem more like an intentional theme choice now, instead of a power-builder's choice. To which, I'm fine with.