D&D (2024) How does the 2024 Fighter compare to other fighting classes?

[Zardnaar]

I should really hope they'd fixed the Champion. That it was in 5.0 both the simplest AND clearly one of the weakest options (better than Banneret, but nearly anything is better than Banneret), and was one of the few subclasses to, IIRC, get actually negative net popularity...it would frankly be a clear failure on WotC's part if they'd managed to make another Champion that actively sucked.

Ironically, this is one of the (very, very) few situations where I think a "details matter" argument (aka, the actually serious and nuanced version of the infamous "white room" argument) is relevant. That is, Champ simply should have a higher baseline damage than BM--but BM should have higher potential damage, if you leverage its features effectively. That actually rewards mastery and skill, exactly what the BM archetype is supposed to be about. Here's hoping the Champ tweaks result in something sufficiently simple to keep its fans pleased, while adding enough meat on the bones that a few new fans develop over time.

Champion gets advantage to initiative and there's several ways to build a ranged character with a touch of control.

Crossbow expert with heavy or handcrossbow looks interesting.

Crossbow expert+heavy weapon master 20 dexterity at 8.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Champion gets advantage to initiative and there's several ways to build a ranged character with a touch of control.

Crossbow expert with heavy or handcrossbow looks interesting.

Crossbow expert+heavy weapon master 20 dexterity at 8.

I'm...not really sure what that has to do with what I said?

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm...not really sure what that has to do with what I said?

Win initiative shoot them twice pushing opponents back. They might not get an attack due to range.

 

[FrogReaver]

I should really hope they'd fixed the Champion. That it was in 5.0 both the simplest AND clearly one of the weakest options (better than Banneret, but nearly anything is better than Banneret), and was one of the few subclasses to, IIRC, get actually negative net popularity...it would frankly be a clear failure on WotC's part if they'd managed to make another Champion that actively sucked.

Ironically, this is one of the (very, very) few situations where I think a "details matter" argument (aka, the actually serious and nuanced version of the infamous "white room" argument) is relevant. That is, Champ simply should have a higher baseline damage than BM--but BM should have higher potential damage, if you leverage its features effectively. That actually rewards mastery and skill, exactly what the BM archetype is supposed to be about. Here's hoping the Champ tweaks result in something sufficiently simple to keep its fans pleased, while adding enough meat on the bones that a few new fans develop over time.

I'll put it this way, I think in t1 and t2 battlemaster still reigns supreme. By t3 I think i actually prefer champion. The only question is whether champion is in a solid enough state to go through levels 1-10 to get to t3. I'm leaning toward yes, but it's not as clear cut as i'd like it to be.

 

[FrogReaver]

Missed this. If that's the case then I suggest that the class needs a rethink. Action Surge is the Fighter's 'Be a hero' (or anti-hero if you're bravely running away) power. The Fighter should be at least on a par without it.

See below - By level 11, even if you remove Action Surge from the damage calc it still leaves the fighter as having one of the higher DPRs.

*Note: in non-white-room circumstances using action surge to close a gap and then attack is the same kind of increase in DPR as using it for another attack action at another time.

Level 11 Damage (no subclasses)

Fighter
Greatsword = 21.6 DPR Base / +1.8 Fighting Style / +6 Graze / +7.2 GWM (not bonus attack) / ~+4.6 Action Surge = ~41.2 DPR

Ranger (calculating using hail of thorns over a 16 round day).
Greatsword = 14.4 DPR Base / +1.2 Fighting Style / +4 Graze / +4.8 GWM (no bonus attack) / +4.2 Hunter's Mark / ~+5.2 Hail of Thorns = ~33.8 DPR

Barbarian
Greatsword = 14.4 DPR Base / +3.6 Rage / +4.8 GWM (not bonus attack) / ~+9.1 Reckless / ~+1.6 Graze = ~33.5 DPR

Paladin (calculating using smite over a 16 round day).
Greatsword = 14.4 DPR Base / +1.2 Fighting Style / +4 Graze / +4.8 GWM (no bonus attack) /+5.4 Radiant Strikes / ~+8.7 Divine Smite = ~38.5 DPR

 

[FrogReaver]

You use a free dice on your turn (Precision, Commander's Stike, Menacing, ect...).

Then you use a free dice and a reaction on the enemy turn (Riposte, Parry).

You get both. 2 different turns, 2 free dice.

Ohhhh. I didn't realize it could give you a free dice on your turn and on the turn you riposte. That's really impressive! But you are right.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I should really hope they'd fixed the Champion. That it was in 5.0 both the simplest AND clearly one of the weakest options (better than Banneret, but nearly anything is better than Banneret), and was one of the few subclasses to, IIRC, get actually negative net popularity...it would frankly be a clear failure on WotC's part if they'd managed to make another Champion that actively sucked.

For the record:

• Remarkable Athlete down to level 3 to go with Improved Critical - and it's now Advantage in athletics and initiative. Huge buff
• Second fighting style down to 7. Blind Fighting is actually looking nice here.
• Heroic Inspiration (i.e. a reroll) in combat every turn is a huge new addition at 10

 

[FrogReaver]

@mellored - looks like my results were a bit higher than i anticipated.

As promised Precision Attack Calcs. But First:

Basic methodology -

• We want to use precision attack anytime we think we've missed by 1-5. *Note: Already have confirmed 1-5 is more optimal than 1-4.
• We need to look at this over the short rest period of 8 rounds.
• Unused Superiority dice at the end of the period cannot be applied to a different maneuver Doing so would break our first assumption. It also wouldn't match reality very well where the adventuring short rest period may go longer than 8 rounds. *Note: We could design a different algorithm for using the dice here, but let's nail the basics first.

Process -

• Determine expected number of superiority dice we can use when making 27 attacks (8 rounds of 3 attacks each + 3 (1 action surge of 3 attacks). This will be done by using the binomial distribution which can be used in excel via the formula:
  =binom.dist(successes, trials, probability of success, non-cumulative)
  More to come on this step further down.
• We then calculate the chance a dice converts a miss to a hit (this is easy as long as advantage is not involved). Since our dice are d10's:
  miss by 1 = 100%
  miss by 2 = 90%
  miss by 3 = 80%
  miss by 4 = 70%
  miss by 5 = 60%
• Average out the above percentages, equally weighted since they all equally come up when rolling 1d20. Simply Calculation so results are here = 80%
• Multiply by the damage we deal when a miss is converted to a hit = 2d6 +1 (fighting style)+ 5 (mod) + 4 (GWM) = 17

Binomial Distribution Process -
Step 1:
In excel make a column of every possible number for misses by 1-5. This will just be a column of 0,1,2, ... ,27

Step 2:
Assuming you start 0 in A2 then in B2 you would use
=Binom.Dist(A2, 27 for number of attacks in short rest period, 0.25 probability of d20 rolling a miss by 1-5, , False for exactly this number of success. True would be for cumulative.

Copy Paste this formula on down.

Step 3:
Make a column of weights in Column C 0,1,2,3,4,5,5,5,5,.....5
*Note: Ends at 5 because you only have 5 superiority dice in a short rest period.

Step 4:
D2 = B2*C2
D3 = B3*C3
Etc.

Step 5:
Sum up column D.

This is the expected number of dice you will use on average for precision attack in a 8 round and 1 action surge short rest period when using them anytime you miss by 1-5

Results -
Binomial Distribution Process results = 4.75
Chance of converting a miss of 1-5 to a hit = 80%
Damage = 17

= 4.75 * 80% * 17 * 2 since only doing the first rest period and we have 1 other.
= 129.2 Damage. Divide by 16 Rounds

=+8.1 DPR from precision attack for the level 11 GWM Fighter.

 

[mellored]

Basic methodology -

• We want to use precision attack anytime we think we've missed by 1-5. *Note: Already have confirmed 1-5 is more optimal than 1-4.

Not sure about that.
If you need a 5 that's 60%.
Riposte is also 60%, but adds 1d10 damage.

And i think it's safe to assume at least a few attacks against you from your preferred target.

*and we are still assuming we know the AC.

• We need to look at this over the short rest period of 8 rounds.

Good point. I was doing long rest.

• Unused Superiority dice at the end of the period cannot be applied to a different maneuver

Agreed.

=+8.1 DPR from precision attack for the level 11 GWM Fighter.

Vs 7.5264 * 17 / 16
= +7.9968 DPR for the Champion.

Champion still has the advantage on Initiative and extra crits though, and rerolls synergies with crits, so they will still be ahead.

But that's really close.