D&D (2024) How does the 2024 Fighter compare to other fighting classes?

[Ashrym]

If masteries represent skill-at-arms beyond Proficiency, then war clerics as-is either:

a) aren't capable of that kind of skill with weapons - in which case, why not?
or
b) their weapon skills are limited (by their god, I assume?) to only whatever buffs their god (i.e. war domain class features) grants them for weapon attacks.

It just seems weird to me.

War Clerics (and other PCs) are capable of it through the Bastions rules in the DMG.

It's just a more time invested process for the PC than a class feature. An interesting impact is there's a time limit on how long the benefit lasts so that creates added incentive against the 5mwd.

It's also an opportunity cost against other bastion options.

 

[mellored]

You do not have 100% chance to miss by 1,2,3 or 4 10 times in the day.

True.
That would a little more than 50% chance to use all the dice...

55.8% chance to use all 10.
88.4% chance to use 9.

It's not that you won't get some % of reaction attacks against your target, it's just we have no real way to measure how many or if it will even be applicable this encounter.

Treatment uses 50% for that kind of stuff. Which seems high IMO.
But that's still only 8 Riposte for 16 rounds.

But it would be a wierd day when you couldn't use all the dice between Precision and Riposte.

So assume half on Precision (99.6% chance to use 5 when missing by 4) and half on Riposte.

5 attacks * 85%
5 attacks * 60%
= 7.25 attacks per day.
Vs 0.784

You can probably massage the numbers to get BM a little higher, but there is still Champs improved critical.

So Champion wins.

Of course, BM can do more than just damage. Commands Strike on a rogue for instance.

Too high a chance to be wasted if trying to riposte.

Precision on your turn.
Riposte (or Parry) on the enemies turn.
Not wasting anything.

But that's level 15.

 

[Ashrym]

Once on your turn, once on the enemies turn.

That seems convoluted to me. The enemy isn't usually attacking me on my turn to trigger the reaction and I would have to have reactions available on both turns.

Is there something I am missing?

 

[mellored]

That seems convoluted to me. The enemy isn't usually attacking me on my turn to trigger the reaction and I would have to have reactions available on both turns.

Is there something I am missing?

You use a free dice on your turn (Precision, Commander's Stike, Menacing, ect...).

Then you use a free dice and a reaction on the enemy turn (Riposte, Parry).

You get both. 2 different turns, 2 free dice.

 

[Ashrym]

You use a free dice on your turn (Precision, Commander's Stike, Menacing, ect...).

Then you use a free dice and a reaction on the enemy turn (Riposte, Parry).

You get both. 2 different turns, 2 free dice.

Ahhh. I thought you meant Riposte for both.

 

[Quartz]

Fighters have always been an A-S tier damage dealer in 5e

I should hope so, but does that only apply if you use Action Surge for an extra Attack action? To me it was always far more, from running away or extra running (extra movement) to recuing an ally after a failed attempt to pushing an ally out of the way to so much more. It was the Fighter's 'let me do something really cool' power. Using it for an extra Attack action seems so... pedestrian.

+0.5 Action Surge = ~9.2 DPR

What if you're using Action Surge for something else?

 

[Quartz]

Early yes. Later I think fighter can gain some ground without action surge.

Missed this. If that's the case then I suggest that the class needs a rethink. Action Surge is the Fighter's 'Be a hero' (or anti-hero if you're bravely running away) power. The Fighter should be at least on a par without it.

 

[mellored]

What if you're using Action Surge for something else?

The same thing that happens when a paladin uses a spell for something other than smite.

They do a bit less damage.

 

[Zardnaar]

Anyways, I just realized how potent the champions heroic inspiration ability you get at level 10 is. Focused on level 11 - Most rounds you are going to miss at least 1 of your attacks 1 - 0.6*0.6*0.6 = 0.784. Assuming you have a good grasp of the enemies AC you can use your heroic inspiration to reroll the miss. Since you do 17 damage on a hit, the +DPR is 0.784*0.6*17 = +8 DPR just from that ability. The Crit ability adds around +1 DPR. +9 DPR from champion subclass is impressive. Likely, stronger than battlemaster for damage.

I really need to add in some subclass evaluations as well.

Feeds vex as well. First attack hits action surge. At 11 7 attacks with advantage if you don't miss.

Has archer options as well. Battlemaster is one of the best archers imho.

Sharpshooter lvl 4, great weapon 6, 20 dex 8.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Anyways, I just realized how potent the champions heroic inspiration ability you get at level 10 is. Focused on level 11 - Most rounds you are going to miss at least 1 of your attacks 1 - 0.6*0.6*0.6 = 0.784. Assuming you have a good grasp of the enemies AC you can use your heroic inspiration to reroll the miss. Since you do 17 damage on a hit, the +DPR is 0.784*0.6*17 = +8 DPR just from that ability. The Crit ability adds around +1 DPR. +9 DPR from champion subclass is impressive. Likely, stronger than battlemaster for damage.

I really need to add in some subclass evaluations as well.

I should really hope they'd fixed the Champion. That it was in 5.0 both the simplest AND clearly one of the weakest options (better than Banneret, but nearly anything is better than Banneret), and was one of the few subclasses to, IIRC, get actually negative net popularity...it would frankly be a clear failure on WotC's part if they'd managed to make another Champion that actively sucked.

Ironically, this is one of the (very, very) few situations where I think a "details matter" argument (aka, the actually serious and nuanced version of the infamous "white room" argument) is relevant. That is, Champ simply should have a higher baseline damage than BM--but BM should have higher potential damage, if you leverage its features effectively. That actually rewards mastery and skill, exactly what the BM archetype is supposed to be about. Here's hoping the Champ tweaks result in something sufficiently simple to keep its fans pleased, while adding enough meat on the bones that a few new fans develop over time.