D&D (2024) How does the 2024 Fighter compare to other fighting classes?

[Ashrym]

Anyways, I just realized how potent the champions heroic inspiration ability you get at level 10 is. Focused on level 11 - Most rounds you are going to miss at least 1 of your attacks 1 - 0.6*0.6*0.6 = 0.784. Assuming you have a good grasp of the enemies AC you can use your heroic inspiration to reroll the miss. Since you do 17 damage on a hit, the +DPR is 0.784*0.6*17 = +8 DPR just from that ability. The Crit ability adds around +1 DPR. +9 DPR from champion subclass is impressive. Likely, stronger than battlemaster for damage.

I really need to add in some subclass evaluations as well.

Remarkable Athlete is much better now too. Advantage on initiative is hard to pass up.

Battle Master can mix and match Weapon Mastery with Maneuvers so by the time Tactical Master comes up and then later with Relentless there's a lot of combinations to work with among 3+ attacks in that turn. Battle Master is still a lot more interactive in the combat.

 

[mellored]

Likely, stronger than battlemaster for damage.

Precision and Riposte will potentially more damage, assuming the dice last long enough.

Is Relentless once per turn, or round?

 

[FrogReaver]

Precision and Riposte will potentially more damage, assuming the dice last long enough.

On the same fighter in a 16 round day with 1 short rest riposte will add +6.9 DPR.

Precision is harder to calculate but if it's more at all it won't be much more. There's a maximization problem with it for Damage by finding the sweet spot for number of miss you can attempt to convert and how likely you are to convert a miss into a hit. Averages don't work here which is what makes it hard. You literally have to compute the chances for 1 miss in my threshold range, 2 in it, etc. Point being, too much math for me this morning!

Riposte isn't very directed damage. So harder to say it should count as single target damage. But precision will be close enough to it in effect and is directed so it's fair to say ~+7 DPR from battlemaster for the GWM at level 11.

Is Relentless once per turn, or round?

It's once per turn, but also level 15.

 

[ART!]

Weapon masteries/properties really kick things up a notch in terms of setting things up for one or more subsequent attacks against the same target. Fighters get more masteries than anyone else, so they have more ways to do this.

I just don't understand why fight-y-oriented subclasses don't get any masteries - like domain of war clerics! I mean, come on!?!

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I just don't understand why fight-y-oriented subclasses don't get any masteries - like domain of war clerics! I mean, come on!?!

I suppose they'll just have to scrape by with only their suite of full spellcasting progression.

 

[ART!]

I suppose they'll just have to scrape by with only their suite of full spellcasting progression.

If masteries represent skill-at-arms beyond Proficiency, then war clerics as-is either:

a) aren't capable of that kind of skill with weapons - in which case, why not?
or
b) their weapon skills are limited (by their god, I assume?) to only whatever buffs their god (i.e. war domain class features) grants them for weapon attacks.

It just seems weird to me.

 

[FrogReaver]

If masteries represent skill-at-arms beyond Proficiency, then war clerics as-is either:

a) aren't capable of that kind of skill with weapons - in which case, why not?
or
b) their weapon skills are limited (by their god, I assume?) to only whatever buffs their god (i.e. war domain class features) grants them for weapon attacks.

It just seems weird to me.

While the fighter was out mastering their weapon the war cleric was praying? Doesn’t seem that hard to find a suitable justification.

 

[ART!]

While the fighter was out mastering their weapon the war cleric was praying? Doesn’t seem that hard to find a suitable justification.

I mean, I get it, and it's probably a balance issue.

I guess you could represent the "Tie your camel first, and then put your trust in Allah" approach by getting some levels in Fighter before going Cleric.

 

[mellored]

Precision is harder to calculate but if it's more at all it won't be much more. There's a maximization problem with it for Damage by finding the sweet spot for number of miss you can attempt to convert and how likely you are to convert a miss into a hit. Averages don't work here which is what makes it hard. You literally have to compute the chances for 1 miss in my threshold range, 2 in it, etc. Point being, too much math for me this morning!

(16 round + 2 action surge) * 3 attacks = 54 attacks

5 dice * 2 = 10 dice
So 1 die every 0.1851851852 attacks.

Sanity Check: 54 attack *20% dice use = 10.8.

So using it when we miss by a 1, 2, 3, or 4 will run

With a d10
1+ is 100%
2+ is 90%
3+ is 80%
4+ is 70%

85% * 10 dice = 8.5 more hits per day.
Vs 0.784 * .6 * 16 = 7.5264 extra hits per day.

*this assumes knowing the target AC, and advantage world help Champion more. But that leaves Precision slightly ahead.

Riposte isn't very directed damage. So harder to say it should count as single target damage.

Fair. Though i expect if your attacking someone with a sword, attacking back petty likely.

Also, make sure you added in the die to damage.

It's once per turn, but also level 15.

So always Riposte after 15.

 

[FrogReaver]

(16 round + 2 action surge) * 3 attacks = 54 attacks

5 dice * 2 = 10 dice
So 1 die every 0.1851851852 attacks.

Sanity Check: 54 attack *20% dice use = 10.8.

So using it when we miss by a 1, 2, 3, or 4 will run

With a d10
1+ is 100%
2+ is 90%
3+ is 80%
4+ is 70%

85% * 10 dice = 8.5 more hits per day.
Vs 0.784 * .6 * 16 = 7.5264 extra hits per day.

You do not have 100% chance to miss by 1,2,3 or 4 10 times in the day. Your actual attempts will be lower than the 10 dice you multiply by due to variability around what you miss by and the number of times you miss in the 'sweet spot, 1-4 or whatever'. Whatever chance you have of doing this needs computed and then you multiple that Chace C by 10. If C = 80% then:

Due to that variability it should be something closer to C*10*.784 = 8*.784 = 6.2. I'll compute the exact value later.

*this assumes knowing the target AC, and advantage world help Champion more. But that leaves Precision slightly ahead.

Yea, there are alot of caveats. But also the conclusion isn't true when everything is fully accounted for.

Fair. Though i expect if your attacking someone with a sword, attacking back petty likely.

Maybe, or maybe they attack the monk beside you, or maybe they go after your wizard, etc. Maybe a different enemy hits you first, do you use your reaction attack on it? Etc. It's not that you won't get some % of reaction attacks against your target, it's just we have no real way to measure how many or if it will even be applicable this encounter. Due to that kind of variability I wouldn't rely on riposte for single target DPR calculations. There's still some pretty good single target damage maneuvers though, outside precision and riposte.

Also, make sure you added in the die to damage.

So always Riposte after 15.

Too high a chance to be wasted if trying to riposte. I'd recommend something more like feinting attack for Relentless as a reliable solid single target damage buff. Estimating it adds +7.9 DPR. Though will come at the expense of your bonus action attack from GWM DPR, something we’ve not calculated yet.