Fighter: Warlord translating to Rogue:Warlord

[bedir than]

As Mearls develops the Fighter:Warlord it makes me think about a somewhat similar concept that I've desired, the non-Magical Bard. As I've read way too much about the Warlord I start to see some of what I like about early Bards, with little or no magic.
An aside seems necessary. I'm returning to D&D after a two decade layoff. I played mostly 1e/2e and probably played them both at the same time. My memory may be fuzzy.

As he trialed both the Fighter:Scout and Rogue:Scout I'm hoping he attempts versions for both a Fighter and Rogue. The Rogue could grant their Sneak Attack dice.

This would combine skill monkey and inspiring leader looks that I like about earlier less magical bards. Taking a Magic Initiate once or twice (let them do it) or a version of Magical Secrets would grant the smaller magics as well.

Maybe this is a dumb thought experiment.

 

[Satyrn]

Well actually . . . The rogue already has a published warlord-esque subclass called the Mastermind in the Sword Coast Adventurers Guide.

Though it's not quite what you decsribe - rather than granting sneak attacks, it can use its cunning action to help.

 

[mellored]

Let's see...


What works...
Expertise/Reliable Talent: Warlords are skillful fighters, giving skills makes plenty of sense.
Sneak Attack: Warlords are team players, so needing a teammate to deal damage works. It also provides a dice pool that can be traded for effects. (i.e. trade 2d6 sneak attack damage to trip the target).
Cunning Action: Moving around the battlefield for better tactical positioning works. Hiding seems a bit odd.
Sub-Class: Flexible
Bonus ASI: Flexible


What Doesn't...
Theives' Cant: Nope. Though something similar, where you could talk to allies in code could work.
Blindsense: Doesn't really fit.
Stroke of Luck: Self damage boost.

What may work...
Unanny Dodge/Evasion/Slippery Mind/Elusive: Genericly useful defense buffs. Warlords don't want to die, but they are all self-buffs.


So... no. I don't see enough space for it. Not without a rogue re-do.

 

[bedir than]

Well actually . . . The rogue already has a published warlord-esque subclass called the Mastermind in the Sword Coast Adventurers Guide.

Though it's not quite what you decsribe - rather than granting sneak attacks, it can use its cunning action to help.

I'm talking about the same concept as being built for the Fighter, thrown onto the Rogue chassis. I'm aware of Mastermind. There's a PC in my game using it, and it's one of three characters I've played.

 

[bedir than]

Let's see...


What works...
Expertise/Reliable Talent: Warlords are skillful fighters, giving skills makes plenty of sense.
Sneak Attack: Warlords are team players, so needing a teammate to deal damage works. It also provides a dice pool that can be traded for effects. (i.e. trade 2d6 sneak attack damage to trip the target).
Cunning Action: Moving around the battlefield for better tactical positioning works. Hiding seems a bit odd.
Sub-Class: Flexible
Bonus ASI: Flexible


What Doesn't...
Theives' Cant: Nope. Though something similar, where you could talk to allies in code could work.
Blindsense: Doesn't really fit.
Stroke of Luck: Self damage boost.

What may work...
Unanny Dodge/Evasion/Slippery Mind/Elusive: Genericly useful defense buffs. Warlords don't want to die, but they are all self-buffs.


So... no. I don't see enough space for it. Not without a rogue re-do.

This reminds me. I wish that Thieves Cant was a 3rd level ribbon for the subclasses where it makes sense

 

[mellored]

I'm talking about the same concept as being built for the Fighter, thrown onto the Rogue chassis. I'm aware of Mastermind. There's a PC in my game using it, and it's one of three characters I've played.

The biggest issue, IMO, is that there isn't enough room on either the fighter or rogue chassy. There's too many built in features.

But of the 2, the fighter is better. The rogue only has 4 sub-class levels (3, 9, 13, 17), compared to the fighter's 5 (3, 7, 10, 15, 18), plus the fighter has an another ABI which can be used for anything. So really, fighter has 2 extra flex-levels over the rogue that they could put towards warlord-y stuff.


Thematicly, I do think the warlord works better under rogue.

"You know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction" -> "You know how to distract a foe for your ally's to exploit".

 

[Dausuul]

I think it could work. I'd start with some sort of class feature where you can decline to use Sneak Attack, and instead use your Sneak Attack dice to boost other PCs' damage output. Not sure offhand what conditions I'd place on it, but the idea would be that the Thieflord facilitates other PCs in getting the best possible shot at an enemy, then amps up that shot with a big damage spike.

 

[Hussar]

Let's see...


What works...
Expertise/Reliable Talent: Warlords are skillful fighters, giving skills makes plenty of sense.
Sneak Attack: Warlords are team players, so needing a teammate to deal damage works. It also provides a dice pool that can be traded for effects. (i.e. trade 2d6 sneak attack damage to trip the target).
Cunning Action: Moving around the battlefield for better tactical positioning works. Hiding seems a bit odd.
Sub-Class: Flexible
Bonus ASI: Flexible


What Doesn't...
Theives' Cant: Nope. Though something similar, where you could talk to allies in code could work.
Blindsense: Doesn't really fit.
Stroke of Luck: Self damage boost.

What may work...
Unanny Dodge/Evasion/Slippery Mind/Elusive: Genericly useful defense buffs. Warlords don't want to die, but they are all self-buffs.


So... no. I don't see enough space for it. Not without a rogue re-do.

Really? I see far more space to work with than with a fighter chasis. I mean, you're including thieves cant in there. Who really cares about Thieves Cant? In all the years I've gamed, I've never seen it come up at the table. Ever. Yippee, your character speaks a language that is only shared by one class, not even a race.

Using the dice pool from sneak attack to power Warlord features seems like the easiest balancing act there is. You don't need to worry about rests, or actions or anything. 1d6 powers things like extra movement, extra saving throws and maybe some sort of healing/temp HP. 2d6 grants extra attacks (and since you're effectively losing 7 points of damage, it doesn't really matter who you grant attacks to, it's not goign to be overpowering.

Three subclasses - Bravura gets extra weapon and armor proficiencies and an extra attack, Tactical adds to inititive and maybe bumps attack damage by Int score and Inspiring grants bonus healing - add Cha to HP healed and actually heals HP, instead of granting temp.

Done and done. Seems a much, much easier fit to me.

 

[Eubani]

In regards to Thieves Cant just have the subclass alter it to something more appropriate. A ribbon like Battle Language: You have developed a list of words and signals for quick and easy communication within battle with your team. This replaces Thieves Cant. I do not want to start something up, but using such things to stop an idea when there are such easy fixes makes a statement about intent.

 

[mellored]

Who really cares about Thieves Cant?

Fair.

Using the dice pool from sneak attack to power Warlord features seems like the easiest balancing act there is.

I agree it has strong potential. But how does that work out in practice?