reapersaurus said:
P.S. drnuncheon and D12, you are so far away from objectiveness with this, it's not even funny.
Why, because we disagree with you? I think that
you are pretty far away from objectiveness - you've obviously decided you don't like it, regardless of what anybody says.
But have you tested it? The proof, as they say, is in the chocolate-flavored dessert.
reapersaurus said:
You obviously have decided you like it, regardless of what anybody says. The problem is, the EK appeals to people who want to be better than all fighter-types in their field of expertise : combat - which he quite easily would be, with Polymorph and buff spells at his disposal.
Heh.
Heh heh.
OK.
Well, lets look.
First level: our fighter is Ftr1 and our prospective ElK is Wiz1 (for the skills - he wants that head start in Concentration.) Fighter wins. Even if the ElK starts as a fighter, they're even at best.
Fifth Level: Ftr5 vs. Ftr1/Wiz4. BAB 5 vs BAB 3. 32 hp vs 17 (before con), or 20 if he started as fighter. Probably wearing full plate vs. spending spell son
mage armor and having to cast
shield at the beginning of every fight (and losing an action). Weapon Focus and Specialization vs Scribe Scroll. Not even close.
Tenth Level: Ftr10 vs. Ftr1/Wiz5/ElK4. BAB 10 vs BAB 7. 60 hp vs. 31.
+2 full plate and a magic shield vs. well, the same
mage armor and
shield combo, pretty much. 3 more melee feats vs. 1 wizard and 1 melee feats.
So let's look at those spells - as a 9th level caster he ought to have a few useful ones, right?
- False Life grants 1d10+ caster level HP's, narrowing the HP gap
Narrowing, but not eliminating. He now has 3/4 of the fighter's hit points instead of half. Huzzah!
- GMW greatly enhances the EK's combat strikes
Setting aside the fact that the fighter could get this cast on him (since we're apparently comparing the characters in a vacuum even though the game isn't designed that way), the ElK can get a whopping +2 weapon out of his GMW spell. What does a 10th level PC fighter usually have? Bet you a cp that it's +2. No advantage.
- Polymorph (AFAIK) gives the EK an overwhelming advantage, even allowing the EK to effectively have much more attribute points to spend on the ones that won't be 'replaced' by the cherry-picked combat-monster Polymorphed form.
Assuming he survives to learn Polymorph with those lousy stats. (Unless this guy blurted out of someone's forehead like Athena...) There's also the matter of it still leaving him with his 31 hp, no matter what he turns into.
- Transformation eradicates the loss of 3 BAB his 5 wizard levels cost him
...can't cast it yet...
- not to mention insane stuff like Forcecage, etc that stops the fights dead
...can't cast it yet...and even if he could, the single-class wizard's been able to do it for two levels now.
- Fly completely changes combat
Depending on where the combat is, maybe. Although intelligent use of terrain (assuming it's not the featureless flat plain that most of these thought experiments seem to take place on) can do pretty much the same thing.
- Greater Invisibility alone will cause the EK to win any fight with a comparable level fighter-type (without help for the fighter)
Of course that's utterly pointless because the game isn't designed to be one PC vs one PC. It's designed to be 4 PCs against the monsters. Against the monsters, he'll need that greater invisibility to avoid the hits that the fighter would be shrugging off due to more hp or a far better AC. They're both expending resources, but the fighter is expending hp and the ElK is expending a 4th level spell.
(And what is the fighter doing while the ElK is casting all of these spells, anyway? Or is this one of those thought experiments where the EK gets to buff himself up for 20 minutes while the fighter picks his nose and then gets ambushed?)
Anyway - if you take these two guys and put them in a series of fights, the ElK is going to fold first. He doesn't have the staying power, because all of his buffs get him up to roughly the fighter's level...but then they run out. If your campaign lets the party rest and regroup after every fight, then the ElK's going to have an advantage - but that's true for any of the spellcasting classes.
Anyway, where were we? Right.
Fifteenth Level: Ftr15 vs Ftr1/Wiz5/ElK9. BAB +15 vs. +12 (and 3 attacks vs 2). 87 hp vs. 51 hp. (Note that that's not even up to the average hit points of a rogue or a bard - two classes not known for their combat staying power!) Armor class...well, just remember that the fighter's AC is always going to be 5-6 points higher, because armor is cheaper than magic.
But hey, he's got spells, right? What if he casts Tenser's transformation, which seems to be widely regarded as the spell that will make the Eldritch Knight dominate?
+4 Str - that's OK, the fighter's probably been boosting his (instead of his int), and he's got a belt of giant strength by this point too - or, he pays the same 300 gp and sucks down his own potion of bull's strength. (Sure, the ElK could craft for half cost...but then he's a feat down and eventually we'll be comparing a Ftr16 to a Ftr1/Wiz5/ElK9...)
+4 Dex - +2 to AC. Combined with the natural armor bonus, this might actually bring him equal to the fighter.
+4 Con - that's +30 hp. Again, almost equal to the fighter.
BAB +15 - hey, they're equal!
Except...
...the fighter has 7 bonus fighter feats and 6 character-level feats, all dedicated to making him better at fighting. The Eldritch Knight has 6 character-level feats split between fighting and casting, 2 bonus fighter feats, 1 bonus wizard feat, and Scribe Scroll. I can tell who's going to put out more damage in that fight, and it ain't the Eldritch Knight.
J
